Residential outlets
- Thread starter yhh
- Start date
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Residential outlets
Min. # required is zero.
Mike P.
Min. # required is zero.
Mike P.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Residential outlets
Yhh, get an electrical contractor who knows how to do the work. If you really want to check on the required receptacle outlets, go to the library, get a copy of the NEC, look up section 210.52 and read.
[ August 13, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
Mike; I can see not answering a DIY but not that type of answer. They know not what they ask.
Yhh, get an electrical contractor who knows how to do the work. If you really want to check on the required receptacle outlets, go to the library, get a copy of the NEC, look up section 210.52 and read.
[ August 13, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Residential outlets
Its 210.52 yhh. And I recommend "wiring simplified" as a very good and inexpensive book for you that I recommend, its about $10 at your home center. Read through it, then if you have questions, ask then.
I had a friend who wired her own house (she maintains my web site) with the help of that book, she nailed it and had no violations when inspected.
Sorry Tom, we both quoted the section without looking it up (I said 110.52 & you said 220.52). Charlie
[ August 13, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
Its 210.52 yhh. And I recommend "wiring simplified" as a very good and inexpensive book for you that I recommend, its about $10 at your home center. Read through it, then if you have questions, ask then.
I had a friend who wired her own house (she maintains my web site) with the help of that book, she nailed it and had no violations when inspected.
Sorry Tom, we both quoted the section without looking it up (I said 110.52 & you said 220.52).
Charlie[ August 13, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Residential outlets
yhh: Your question was simple and direct, so I?ll give you a simple and direct answer. Let me qualify by presuming that we are constructing a new house, as opposed to performing a move-in inspection on an existing house. You must have one circuit dedicated for the laundry area, and two for small kitchen appliances. The rest of the required receptacle outlets are based on having one every so many feet along the walls. Generally, you should not have to look more than 6 feet along a wall, to find an outlet. There are other special rules (such as having some of the circuits protected by a ground fault device and others protected by an arc fault device), but for further details you would need to read the NEC, as mentioned above.
yhh: Your question was simple and direct, so I?ll give you a simple and direct answer. Let me qualify by presuming that we are constructing a new house, as opposed to performing a move-in inspection on an existing house. You must have one circuit dedicated for the laundry area, and two for small kitchen appliances. The rest of the required receptacle outlets are based on having one every so many feet along the walls. Generally, you should not have to look more than 6 feet along a wall, to find an outlet. There are other special rules (such as having some of the circuits protected by a ground fault device and others protected by an arc fault device), but for further details you would need to read the NEC, as mentioned above.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Residential outlets
I put zero because that is the answer. There was not enough information to expand on.
I was seeing if anyone was going to challenge my anwser.
Mike P.
I put zero because that is the answer. There was not enough information to expand on.
I was seeing if anyone was going to challenge my anwser.
Mike P.
Re: Residential outlets
Thanks all even to Mike P for his unnecessarily condensending attitude. I am helping a guy wire his basement. He wants to put on outlet on every wall regardless of length. I suggested every 5 feet to avoid extension cords, etc. I told him he had to use GFCI breakers or outlets in series. I just didn't know where to look exactly in the NEC. Have more caffine Mike P!
Thanks all even to Mike P for his unnecessarily condensending attitude. I am helping a guy wire his basement. He wants to put on outlet on every wall regardless of length. I suggested every 5 feet to avoid extension cords, etc. I told him he had to use GFCI breakers or outlets in series. I just didn't know where to look exactly in the NEC. Have more caffine Mike P!
Re: Residential outlets
This may save you a trip to the library. Here's the section of the NEC
"III. Required Outlets
210.50 General.
Receptacle outlets shall be installed as specified in 210.52 through 210.63.
210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall."
Keep in mind when it says "Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet." that means 12' On Center not 6' on center. . Best of luck.
This may save you a trip to the library. Here's the section of the NEC
"III. Required Outlets
210.50 General.
Receptacle outlets shall be installed as specified in 210.52 through 210.63.
210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall."
Keep in mind when it says "Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet." that means 12' On Center not 6' on center.
. Best of luck.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Residential outlets
Why the GFCIs?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Residential outlets
YHH
I am sorry if you do not like the correct answer.
I am not sorry that "you" read something into my post that was not meant.
What are you doing giving advice to someone when you have no idea what you are doing?
Is this how you run your contracting business? On the fly?
Do not come to a knife fight with a noodle!
Mike P.
YHH
I am sorry if you do not like the correct answer.
I am not sorry that "you" read something into my post that was not meant.
What are you doing giving advice to someone when you have no idea what you are doing?
Is this how you run your contracting business? On the fly?
Do not come to a knife fight with a noodle!
Mike P.
lady sparks lover
Senior Member
Re: Residential outlets
Come on fellas, play nice. There's no need to get upset. We're here to learn from each other, now shake hands and play nice.
Re: Residential outlets
Actually, the funny thing is that Mike was only off by 1 with his answer of zero... because you are talking about wiring a basement... if it's an unfinished basement then you only need 1...and it must be GFCI... a finished basement of course is a different story.... at least the poor guy had the sense to ask the question first in an attempt to do the right thing....it's the guys who don't ask that are dangerous....
Actually, the funny thing is that Mike was only off by 1 with his answer of zero... because you are talking about wiring a basement... if it's an unfinished basement then you only need 1...and it must be GFCI... a finished basement of course is a different story.... at least the poor guy had the sense to ask the question first in an attempt to do the right thing....it's the guys who don't ask that are dangerous....
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Residential outlets
How true
How true
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Residential outlets
To determine if the basement qualifies as a 'finished' basement is up to the building official. Different municipalities have requirements that may differ as to what a finished basement is. For example: some require the floor to be finished, but the ceiling can remain unfinished. Some do not require the floor to be finished but the ceiling to be. So check with the building department before you determine what is or isn't finished.
As for reading the NEC, it can be difficult to follow for the novice, I would consult with the AHJ, he will ultimately judge your work.
Helping a friend is always to be commended, but make sure you are truly helping him.
Pierre
To determine if the basement qualifies as a 'finished' basement is up to the building official. Different municipalities have requirements that may differ as to what a finished basement is. For example: some require the floor to be finished, but the ceiling can remain unfinished. Some do not require the floor to be finished but the ceiling to be. So check with the building department before you determine what is or isn't finished.
As for reading the NEC, it can be difficult to follow for the novice, I would consult with the AHJ, he will ultimately judge your work.
Helping a friend is always to be commended, but make sure you are truly helping him.
Pierre
Re: Residential outlets
Better yet have him buy his own copy of the NEC, we did, his profile says he is a Contractor, ergo must be knowledgeable in all the trades, to the point, when additions come along he does the work himself,(No inspections of course) because he thinks he doesnt need an Electrician.
sorry for the RANT just lost a big job to a GC who told the customer they didnt need an electrical permit for an addition wiring(fairly large one too). And that his guys could do all the work at half the price.
MO-hunks I tell you thats all they are is mo-hunks.
Wm.Colt
Better yet have him buy his own copy of the NEC, we did, his profile says he is a Contractor, ergo must be knowledgeable in all the trades, to the point, when additions come along he does the work himself,(No inspections of course) because he thinks he doesnt need an Electrician.
sorry for the RANT just lost a big job to a GC who told the customer they didnt need an electrical permit for an addition wiring(fairly large one too). And that his guys could do all the work at half the price.
MO-hunks I tell you thats all they are is mo-hunks.
Wm.Colt
russellroberts
Senior Member
- Location
- Georgia
Re: Residential outlets
Had the same thing happen to us about a month ago.
Carpenter crew told the lady they could do the wiring.No inspection here,or so they thought.
She had an independent HI(retired from 35 years as an electrical inspector in Florida) look at it before the drywall went up. He wrote up 18 code violations and stopped. Told her she needed an electrician to correct it(suggested ripping it all out and starting over and turning them in to the licensing board)
She didn't turn them in,but did fire them and refused to pay for the electrical.
Sometimes there is a bit of justice
Russell
Had the same thing happen to us about a month ago.
Carpenter crew told the lady they could do the wiring.No inspection here,or so they thought.
She had an independent HI(retired from 35 years as an electrical inspector in Florida) look at it before the drywall went up. He wrote up 18 code violations and stopped. Told her she needed an electrician to correct it(suggested ripping it all out and starting over and turning them in to the licensing board)
She didn't turn them in,but did fire them and refused to pay for the electrical.
Sometimes there is a bit of justice
Russell
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Residential outlets
The six foot rule is the minimum. Here are some suggestions:
1. Put at least one receptacle on each wall. If that makes them more than 12' apart add receptacles as necessary to meet the 12' rule. I'm calling it the 12' rule because that's basically what it really is. Keep in mind that once you hit a door you have to start over with the rule. No point on any wall can be more than 6' from a receptacle. So if you stand at a point in a wall there should be a receptacle within 6' of your right or 6' of your left. If the wall is 12' or more in length there will have to be at least 2 receptacles on that wall.
2. Don't put receptacles where they are likely to be covered up. For instance let's say you are a 11'-6" by 11'-6" bedroom. You put one receptacle on each wall. You are fussy so you put each one dead center in the wall about a foot from the floor. The homeowner puts their queen-sized water bed in the middle of one wall; their oak roll-top thousand pound desk in the middle of another wall; and their 500-pound highboy dresser in the middle of another wall. The 4th wall has the door, and in the middle of that wall they put a heavy armoire. All four outlets are now inaccessible and basically useless. Or maybe they have ESP and they run some extension cords out from behind the furniture. They mash their furniture up against these cords causing the cords to become kinked and frayed and maybe even broken over time.
In item #2 I would place an electrical outlet on either side of where I suppose the queen sized bed will go someday. That way the homeowner has two accessible outlets to use after the bed is in place.
Moral of the story: Minimum requirements don't mean squat. They are to be used as a guideline. Better to place receptacles for function, and then fill in any blanks spaces needed to meet the minimum code requirement. In my example the 11'-6"x11'-6" bedroom would end up with five or six receptacles instead of only four.
In a basement I can see people running Skil saws; garage bands; electric heaters; big-screen TV's; etc. In that case you need some extra circuits and some handy receptacles.
I've said too much, but it's too late. It's already typed out.
PS: An outlet is required for some hallways. Check the NEC for details. The NEC will list all rooms that require a small applicance or specialty circuit. Here is a good distillation of the NEC when it comes to questions about residential applications:
Code Check: Electrical: A Guide to Wiring a Safe House
The six foot rule is the minimum. Here are some suggestions:
1. Put at least one receptacle on each wall. If that makes them more than 12' apart add receptacles as necessary to meet the 12' rule. I'm calling it the 12' rule because that's basically what it really is. Keep in mind that once you hit a door you have to start over with the rule. No point on any wall can be more than 6' from a receptacle. So if you stand at a point in a wall there should be a receptacle within 6' of your right or 6' of your left. If the wall is 12' or more in length there will have to be at least 2 receptacles on that wall.
2. Don't put receptacles where they are likely to be covered up. For instance let's say you are a 11'-6" by 11'-6" bedroom. You put one receptacle on each wall. You are fussy so you put each one dead center in the wall about a foot from the floor. The homeowner puts their queen-sized water bed in the middle of one wall; their oak roll-top thousand pound desk in the middle of another wall; and their 500-pound highboy dresser in the middle of another wall. The 4th wall has the door, and in the middle of that wall they put a heavy armoire. All four outlets are now inaccessible and basically useless. Or maybe they have ESP and they run some extension cords out from behind the furniture. They mash their furniture up against these cords causing the cords to become kinked and frayed and maybe even broken over time.
In item #2 I would place an electrical outlet on either side of where I suppose the queen sized bed will go someday. That way the homeowner has two accessible outlets to use after the bed is in place.
Moral of the story: Minimum requirements don't mean squat. They are to be used as a guideline. Better to place receptacles for function, and then fill in any blanks spaces needed to meet the minimum code requirement. In my example the 11'-6"x11'-6" bedroom would end up with five or six receptacles instead of only four.
In a basement I can see people running Skil saws; garage bands; electric heaters; big-screen TV's; etc. In that case you need some extra circuits and some handy receptacles.
I've said too much, but it's too late. It's already typed out.
PS: An outlet is required for some hallways. Check the NEC for details. The NEC will list all rooms that require a small applicance or specialty circuit. Here is a good distillation of the NEC when it comes to questions about residential applications:
Code Check: Electrical: A Guide to Wiring a Safe House
If you are not confident in your abilities please consider hiring a licensed professional to do the work for you. If you are not confident in your knowledge please consider hiring a licensed professional to be your coach.
Re: Residential outlets
Russel
thats good ! You are right once in awhile we get even.
I was working with a carpenter and he was in a hurry for me to finish up the ruff so he could hang his drywall. In fact he was almost following behind me. In fact he worked that night to finish so he could move on the next day. The next day the Electrical Inspector showed up for the rough inspection and saw nothing, he grabbed the carpenter and told him take down the drywall so he could look at the wiring.
I had pre-warned the carpenter but he paid no heed, so it was icing on the cake. I had this smug grin all day long..
WmColt
Russel
thats good ! You are right once in awhile we get even.
I was working with a carpenter and he was in a hurry for me to finish up the ruff so he could hang his drywall. In fact he was almost following behind me. In fact he worked that night to finish so he could move on the next day. The next day the Electrical Inspector showed up for the rough inspection and saw nothing, he grabbed the carpenter and told him take down the drywall so he could look at the wiring.
I had pre-warned the carpenter but he paid no heed, so it was icing on the cake. I had this smug grin all day long..
WmColt
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Residential outlets
Here is the Montana cheat sheet. Scroll down for a sample list of circuits and their basic requirements:
How they do houses in Montana
[ Note: This forum submission from awwt was Spell Checked before submission thanks to: http://www.iespell.com ]
Here is the Montana cheat sheet. Scroll down for a sample list of circuits and their basic requirements:
How they do houses in Montana
[ Note: This forum submission from awwt was Spell Checked before submission thanks to: http://www.iespell.com ]
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