residential panel-code compliant options

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CBL

CBL

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So Cal
Hello, I'm working on a Residential property that is in escrow. The person looking to buy the home ask me to look at the panel and tell him if it's up to code and if not what would it take to make it code compliant?This is in So Cal and the house was probably built around 1950 something?? I'm thinking it would have to be upgraded because the previous owner(s) added breakers for ??? and now more than (6) breakers on a main lug panel...Is this right? What is the opinion on the best way to make this code compliant??? If this is left this way, what are the safety issues?? I listed a link to photobucket, the panel in question is listed under La Mirada-Panel, Scroll down and then click on pic to view enlarged.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/jute57/La%20Mirada-%20Panel/
Your input is greatly appreciated...Thanks, Jerry
 
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I couldn't find your picture. Is the panel split-bus? I have seen panels that have 6 2pole breakers that serve as the 6 allowed mains, 1 or 2 of which protect seperate busses in the same enclosure for the 1pole breakers
 
Thanks Trevor, I tried and it worked fine..Do you know what I needto do so it can be viewed by others??Thanks, Jerry
 
CBL said:
Thanks Trevor, I tried and it worked fine..Do you know what I needto do so it can be viewed by others??Thanks, Jerry
Click to expand...


You could try this:

1) open photo in photobucket
2) right click on photo and copy properties
3) in Forum reply insert your image between the two bracketed phrases,
 
La%20Mirada-%20Panel


Try this one...Hopefully this works to view the panel instead of link listed in the previous post...Thanks Infinity,
 
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JohnJ0906 said:
I couldn't find your picture. Is the panel split-bus? I have seen panels that have 6 2pole breakers that serve as the 6 allowed mains, 1 or 2 of which protect seperate busses in the same enclosure for the 1pole breakers
Click to expand...
The link listed above seems to be working now...The panel has a total of (7) breakers, (5) 20a/20a single pole, (1) 50a single pole, (1) 30a single pole... I thought the double/Tandem breakers(20a/20a single pole) counted as 2 of the 6 allowed??? Please correct my breaker discription, if needed...Thanks, Jerry
 
It's hard for me to see anything that's code compliant.
If that's the main, it definitely needs work.
Even if there is a main disconnect in front of it, I'll bet that it's not listed for that many circuits, or that the feeders are big enough for the load.
Also, box fill is a real concern.
 
I agree this needs replacement, however the question remains was this a code compliant installation when it was originally installed?
 
hillbilly said:
Even if there is a main disconnect in front of it, I'll bet that it's not listed for that many circuits, or that the feeders are big enough for the load.
Also, box fill is a real concern.
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I didn't see a main breaker, isn't this considerd a "main lug panel" ??
 
infinity said:
I agree this needs replacement, however the question remains was this a code compliant installation when it was originally installed?
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I thought this needs replacement also and have already told the customer that. As far as being code compliant at the time of installation, I'm thinking it probably was but a lot has been added (I'm Guessing) since the original installation... Also what size would be recommended for replacement??
 
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CBL said:
I didn't see a main breaker, isn't this considerd a "main lug panel" ??
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IMO...If it's used as the main, it's a main disconnect panel.
If so, it can't have over 6 switches (6 movements of the hand) to disconnect all of the un-grounded supply conductors (230.70 and 230.71).
A main lug panel can only be used as a main disconnect if equipped with 6 or fewer switches (hand movements) to disconnect all the incoming utility power source.
If a main disconnect is installed in front of a Main Lug~Lighting and appliance panel, the maximum number of overcurrent devices is 42 (408.35).
Each 2 pole breaker or tandem (piggy-back) breaker counts as two overcurrent devices.
To me... the use of the term "Main lug" to describe a panel without a main breaker installed is confusing to some people. Maybe they should drop the word main and just call it a "Lug Panel".
steve
 
CBL said:
Hello, I'm working on a Residential property that is in escrow. The person looking to buy the home ask me to look at the panel and tell him if it's up to code and if not what would it take to make it code compliant?This is in So Cal and the house was probably built around 1950 something?? I'm thinking it would have to be upgraded because the previous owner(s) added breakers for ??? and now more than (6) breakers on a main lug panel...Is this right? What is the opinion on the best way to make this code compliant??? If this is left this way, what are the safety issues?? I listed a link to photobucket, the panel in question is listed under La Mirada-Panel, Scroll down and then click on pic to view enlarged.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/jute57/La%20Mirada-%20Panel/
Your input is greatly appreciated...Thanks, Jerry
Click to expand...

Are "you" replacing the panel yourself?

If "you" cannot determine whether that panel is code compliant than you should hire an electrical contractor to replace it
 
IMO, it does not matter a whole lot whether it meets today's code or not.

You should do a little investigation and look at:

- Is it safe?
- Is it adequate for the electrical needs of the unit?
- Can you change out this box without changing the service?
- Can the customer afford to change it out?

I am inclined toward replacement for several reasons, but some places might well require you to upgrade the service if you did so, and that could get to be a much more pricey situation.
 
Jerry,
From the question in the OP, whether it is code compliant, it sounds as if (just maybe) the new buyer is trying to put a new panel into their escow as some kind of bargaining chip. Perhaps the others here do not realize that 100 year old bungalows with crumbling foundations (in south central LA) normally sell for $450 and up.

If a homeowner asked me this I'd take a step back. Any chance you'd get yourself involved in a dispute of some kind, is a real issue; the seller's RE agent can probably find 'someone' to visit, someone whose cousin works at the local building department to visit and back them up. As an EC no, you cannot stand up to those guys. All you can do, IMO, is to provide your opinion - is it an immediate hazard if not they need to call the building department whose job it is to inspect and then determine whether it is code compliant. La Mirada decides whether a half width breaker added in there umpteen years ago was ok, not Jerry.

As for my input, that box does not look like the usual 1950 install, it was worked on later. They have lots of capacity there for a residential family situation. A word of advice, whatever you do call a spotter before buying anything or making final plans.
 
From what I see its is a 100A 8 position SquareD QO panel and it could be original equipment since QO was introduced in 1955. http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/en/history/html/19451968.htm

It was code compliant at that time and would still be if there were only 6 handles in the box (although I don't see any anti-ox on the terminals). It could be made "minimum code complaint if load calculations determined house still qualifies for a 100A service and enough circuits were moved to a sub panel. The problem is it would be cheaper to upgrade to a 20 position MBR panel than to add the sub panel.
 
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