residential spa
- Thread starter shelco
- Start date
- Status
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: residential spa
8/3 romex is only good for 40 amps. See table 310.16 and 334.80
Re: residential spa
Read manufactures instructions, almost every packaged spa requires the equipment grounding conductor to be the same size as the phase conductors, and because of 110.3 (B) you must fulfill that requirement. If spa is a 40 or 50 amp unit, then you cannot run romex to it at all.
Fred Bender
Read manufactures instructions, almost every packaged spa requires the equipment grounding conductor to be the same size as the phase conductors, and because of 110.3 (B) you must fulfill that requirement. If spa is a 40 or 50 amp unit, then you cannot run romex to it at all.
Fred Bender
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential spa
We have wired 1000`s of spa prewires in 6/3 nm .Never has there been an issue in re: to the grounding conductors size.I don`t see any issue at all
We have wired 1000`s of spa prewires in 6/3 nm .Never has there been an issue in re: to the grounding conductors size.I don`t see any issue at all
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: residential spa
If the 50A GFCI is in a wet location (outdoors) then Romex cannot be used. Also if the SPA includes a motor, then I believe 680-25(c) requires use of RMC, IMC, RNMC or MC for the outdoor part of the wiring at a one-family dwelling. I am sure we will debate the "Pool associated motors" language.
Mark
If the 50A GFCI is in a wet location (outdoors) then Romex cannot be used. Also if the SPA includes a motor, then I believe 680-25(c) requires use of RMC, IMC, RNMC or MC for the outdoor part of the wiring at a one-family dwelling. I am sure we will debate the "Pool associated motors" language.
Mark
Re: residential spa
The fact that you have done it once or a thousand times a certain way doesn't make it right. If the manufacturers instructions state a minimum size euipment grounding conductor, then that must be installed. 110.3 (B) is the most widely violated code section! A 6-3 romex in most cases in not legal to run to a packaged spa.
Fred Bender
The fact that you have done it once or a thousand times a certain way doesn't make it right. If the manufacturers instructions state a minimum size euipment grounding conductor, then that must be installed. 110.3 (B) is the most widely violated code section! A 6-3 romex in most cases in not legal to run to a packaged spa.
Fred Bender
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential spa
Sorry but if you can show me an actual violation I will concede.All that article says it must conform with manufacturers instructions that is the biggest crock that is used as a catch all.
We are contracted to install a 50 amp prewire.As far as nm not being acceptable why not ? It is inside the residence and terminates on the back of a wp disconnect.Any exterior wiring is done in wet location means.Twist the NEC any way you like but unless you can show me an article that explicetly forbids it status quoe for me
Sorry but if you can show me an actual violation I will concede.All that article says it must conform with manufacturers instructions that is the biggest crock that is used as a catch all.
We are contracted to install a 50 amp prewire.As far as nm not being acceptable why not ? It is inside the residence and terminates on the back of a wp disconnect.Any exterior wiring is done in wet location means.Twist the NEC any way you like but unless you can show me an article that explicetly forbids it status quoe for me
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential spa
You must be using the 05 code we are under the 02 code and 680 25 in 02 doesn`t have a c subsection
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: residential spa
I too would like to see something that proves this.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: residential spa
Actually using the 1999 code. I have the 02, but my jurisdiction is still on 99.
It could be debated whether the inside of a WP disconnect outdoors fed from the back is a wet or dry location.
Mark
[ May 18, 2005, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
Actually using the 1999 code. I have the 02, but my jurisdiction is still on 99.
It could be debated whether the inside of a WP disconnect outdoors fed from the back is a wet or dry location.
Mark
[ May 18, 2005, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
speedypetey
Senior Member
- Location
- Hudson Valley, NY
Re: residential spa
I don't think it is something in explicit writing.
I do understand what derf is saying. If the instructions say torun a #6 ground for the WHOLE circuit, then you must do so. I have not seen this in any instructions.
In fact, if the circuit hits a w/p disconnect switch with a breaker, I would call the load side of this the branch circuit. This already needs an insulated ground and is typically the same size as the circuit conductors.
"It could be debated whether the inside of a WP disconnect outdoors fed from the back is a wet or dry location."
I agree. IMO this is NOT a wet or damp location. The same argument could be made for all those areas with outside main panels. If this argument were held up, then any place with a panel outside would need UF as the originating branch circuit conductors. I don't think that's going to happen.
I don't think it is something in explicit writing.
I do understand what derf is saying. If the instructions say torun a #6 ground for the WHOLE circuit, then you must do so. I have not seen this in any instructions.
In fact, if the circuit hits a w/p disconnect switch with a breaker, I would call the load side of this the branch circuit. This already needs an insulated ground and is typically the same size as the circuit conductors.
"It could be debated whether the inside of a WP disconnect outdoors fed from the back is a wet or dry location."
I agree. IMO this is NOT a wet or damp location. The same argument could be made for all those areas with outside main panels. If this argument were held up, then any place with a panel outside would need UF as the originating branch circuit conductors. I don't think that's going to happen.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: residential spa
I've done hundreds of spas also.
Every single one has required a full size, insulated ground.
NM would be no good.
Allen, if all you are asked to provide is a 50 amp circut, you are correct.
But if the circut is to be used for a spa, your wire, at that point is probably violating the manufacturers instructions.
If you know ahead of time that the circut is for a spa, it is possible that you are doin the customer a dis-service, imo.
I've done hundreds of spas also.
Every single one has required a full size, insulated ground.
NM would be no good.
Allen, if all you are asked to provide is a 50 amp circut, you are correct.
But if the circut is to be used for a spa, your wire, at that point is probably violating the manufacturers instructions.
If you know ahead of time that the circut is for a spa, it is possible that you are doin the customer a dis-service, imo.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: residential spa
Peter,
I tend to agree with you, I was just pointing out that an AHJ could probably see it either way. If given the choice in this condition (i.e. new circuit), I would probably run UF to avoid the question.
Also, the original post did not say that the disconnect was fed from the back. I was partially commenting on the fact that there might have been a run of NM outdoors.
Mark
[ May 18, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
Peter,
I tend to agree with you, I was just pointing out that an AHJ could probably see it either way. If given the choice in this condition (i.e. new circuit), I would probably run UF to avoid the question.
Also, the original post did not say that the disconnect was fed from the back. I was partially commenting on the fact that there might have been a run of NM outdoors.
Mark
[ May 18, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
Re: residential spa
680.42(A)(1) limits the length of liquid tight to 6'...an often violated section.
680.42(A)(1) limits the length of liquid tight to 6'...an often violated section.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: residential spa
I would like to know how an over sized grounding conductor will ever make a GFCI (class A I might add)protected spa installation any safer???
This requirment is so riddled with holes that it makes my head spin!
1. A properly connected # 10 grounding conductor will fault the whole 60 amps the circuit can give it!
2. It most likly will not ever see this high of current as it has a GFCI breaker ahead of it which should only let it see 5ma's
3. A over sized ground will not fix a badly connected grounding conductor, a bad connection is a bad connection.
It happen's on big and little wires
One question I have is are these the "UL listed" instruction's? If not then 110.3 does not apply, and I can't see UL making a requirment like this. :roll:
I would like to know how an over sized grounding conductor will ever make a GFCI (class A I might add)protected spa installation any safer???
This requirment is so riddled with holes that it makes my head spin!
1. A properly connected # 10 grounding conductor will fault the whole 60 amps the circuit can give it!
2. It most likly will not ever see this high of current as it has a GFCI breaker ahead of it which should only let it see 5ma's
3. A over sized ground will not fix a badly connected grounding conductor, a bad connection is a bad connection.
It happen's on big and little wires
One question I have is are these the "UL listed" instruction's? If not then 110.3 does not apply, and I can't see UL making a requirment like this. :roll:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: residential spa
680-40. Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts A and B of this article except as permitted in (a) and (b).
680-25 (c) Motors. Pool-associated motors shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-122 but not smaller than No. 12. It shall be an insulated copper conductor and shall be installed with the circuit conductors in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the application. Where installed on or within buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted to be used to protect the conductors.
In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or covered by the outer sheath of the wiring method and is not smaller than No. 12 shall be permitted to be used for the connection of pool-associated motors. Flexible cord shall be permitted in accordance with Section 680-7.
Does this spa have a motor?
edited to add the dwelling unit part
[ May 18, 2005, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
the 1999 cycle states in
680-40. Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts A and B of this article except as permitted in (a) and (b).
680-25 (c) Motors. Pool-associated motors shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-122 but not smaller than No. 12. It shall be an insulated copper conductor and shall be installed with the circuit conductors in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the application. Where installed on or within buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted to be used to protect the conductors.
In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or covered by the outer sheath of the wiring method and is not smaller than No. 12 shall be permitted to be used for the connection of pool-associated motors. Flexible cord shall be permitted in accordance with Section 680-7.
Does this spa have a motor?
edited to add the dwelling unit part
[ May 18, 2005, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential spa
Nothing says it has to compy from main panel to sub panel that is already taken care of but if manufacturers instructions did say this then it would only be from point of usage and not point of origin.
Even if you subed a 200 amp panel and took power from there that would not comply with the supposed manufacturers instructions.Look at200 amp al ser that would not be ok,so to say that .The point of origin could only be from a MBR panel and not a sub panel
I`ll jump and say that the keyword is outdoor installation.From disconnect to unit.Once you reach the gfci disc. that is a new sub panel.Anything after that would have to comply.Again enter the back in 6/3 nm and it is fine.Still a dry location in house and as far as being code compliant to feed a sub panel it is fineOriginally posted by jwelectric:
the 1999 cycle states in
680-40. Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts A and B of this article except as permitted in (a) and (b).
680-25 (c) Motors. Pool-associated motors shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-122 but not smaller than No. 12. It shall be an insulated copper conductor and shall be installed with the circuit conductors in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the application. Where installed on or within buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted to be used to protect the conductors.
Does this spa have a motor?
Nothing says it has to compy from main panel to sub panel that is already taken care of but if manufacturers instructions did say this then it would only be from point of usage and not point of origin.Even if you subed a 200 amp panel and took power from there that would not comply with the supposed manufacturers instructions.Look at200 amp al ser that would not be ok,so to say that .The point of origin could only be from a MBR panel and not a sub panel
- Status