Residential window wells

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mwm1752

mwm1752

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Aspen, Colo
Does 210.70(A)(2)(b) apply to a residential window well designed for emergency egress?

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A)Dwelling Units. I n dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch?controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.

 
Is a window well any different than a window used for emergency egress and sized according to the building code?
 
mwm1752 said:
Does 210.70(A)(2)(b) apply to a residential window well designed for emergency egress?

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A)Dwelling Units. I n dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch?controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.

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I do not know what building code you are under but the international residential code specifically exempts those types of stair ways or ladders from illumination requirements. There is a similar exemption for covered stairways
 
david said:
I do not know what building code you are under but the international residential code specifically exempts those types of stair ways or ladders from illumination requirements. There is a similar exemption for covered stairways
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Thanks, 2009 IRC requires illumination for exterior stairs
R303.6 Exterior stairways shall be provided with an artificial light source located in the immediate vicinity of the top landing of the stairway. Exterior stairways providing access to a basement from the outside grade level shall be provided with an artificial light source located in the immediate vicinity of the bottom landing of the stairway.
Exception: An artificial light source is not required at the top and bottom landing, provided an artificial light source is located directly over each stairway section.
and means of egress stairs
R311.7.8 Illumination. All stairs shall be provided with illumination in accordance with Section R303.6.
I found the real clue is a window well is under EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE OPENINGS which have no illumination requirements
 
rcarroll said:
No, & no other building code requires lighting at egress window wells.
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I am not sure it is that straight forward. Some window wells use stairs and not a ladder. Though the stairs are exempt from any prescriptive rise and treed dimensions they can still have six or more rises.

I do not see an exemption in the NEC. for exterior stairs depending on their use. I also see this same conflict with the NEC and (bilco doors) covered stairs from a basement to grade that are also being used to meet the emergency egress in dwellings from floor levels below grade.

The NEC is more broad than the building code when it comes to exits and illumination. The international residential building code only requires illumination for required exits. The man door from a garage for example is not a required egress in accordance with the building code but the NEC has a mandate for illumination for exits without stating required exits
 
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I see a window as an emergency egress only when the usual egress can not be utilized, whether it be below grade with a well, or 3 stories up. If we are going to require illumination for the window well then we should need illumination for the third story window as well.
 
kwired said:
I see a window as an emergency egress only when the usual egress can not be utilized, whether it be below grade with a well, or 3 stories up. If we are going to require illumination for the window well then we should need illumination for the third story window as well.
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I agree that a window well is not a normal exit.

And I agree that the stairs at some of these wells are exempt as well in accordance with the building code.

I just do not think that egress stairs are that clearly exempt when it comes to the NEC. I see this as a conflict between the building codes and the NEC.

Not that it matters to me I am not going to ever require illumination at window well stairs
 
david said:
I agree that a window well is not a normal exit.

And I agree that the stairs at some of these wells are exempt as well in accordance with the building code.

I just do not think that egress stairs are that clearly exempt when it comes to the NEC. I see this as a conflict between the building codes and the NEC.

Not that it matters to me I am not going to ever require illumination at window well stairs
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How about we just say NEC doesn't require illumination for hardly any area. Most places it does are going to be chapter 5,6,7 applications. It does require lighting outlets for some areas. For dwellings it really only requires a lighting outlet at entrances, and is not very specific with the location of those outlets or what may need to be illuminated by such outlet. Other codes may require specific illumination levels at specific locations.
 
kwired said:
How about we just say NEC doesn't require illumination for hardly any area. Most places it does are going to be chapter 5,6,7 applications. It does require lighting outlets for some areas. For dwellings it really only requires a lighting outlet at entrances, and is not very specific with the location of those outlets or what may need to be illuminated by such outlet. Other codes may require specific illumination levels at specific locations.
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No doubt that is correct that there is a difference between requiring an outlet verses requiring a fixture or illumination for that matter.

The conflict still exist, the thrust of this thread is weather illumination is required or not and you cannot have illumination without an outlet.

The NEC requires a means ( in the form of an outlet) of providing illumination at the (stairs) and the building code does not.

I do not see this thread a trying to define the difference between an outlet and illumination.
 
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david said:
No doubt that is correct that there is a difference between requiring an outlet verses requiring a fixture or illumination for that matter.

The conflict still exist, the thrust of this thread is weather illumination is required or not and you cannot have illumination without an outlet.

The NEC requires a means ( in the form of an outlet) of providing illumination at the (stairs) and the building code does not.

I do not see this thread a trying to define the difference between an outlet and illumination.
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Ok, OP pretty much directly asked a question on 210.70.

The question is whether a window that meets egress requirements is also considered an "entrance/exit"? As I said earlier, if this basement window requires lighting outlet then so should a third story window. Either can be used for emergency egress, but neither is commonly used for "usual entrance/exit" purposes, but that is JMO.
 
kwired said:
Ok, OP pretty much directly asked a question on 210.70.

The question is whether a window that meets egress requirements is also considered an "entrance/exit"? As I said earlier, if this basement window requires lighting outlet then so should a third story window. Either can be used for emergency egress, but neither is commonly used for "usual entrance/exit" purposes, but that is JMO.
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And I agree,

The main reason that I even posted in this thread I was requiring an lighting outlet at the bottom of stairways in basements that were also being used for emergency egress and moving furniture in and out of the dwelling basement area. The building inspector pointed out that there is a specific exemption in the building code for (bico type) covered stairways to basements.

This evolved to further investigating the differences between the building code and the NEC where lighting outlets where required. I use to require an lighting outlet at the man door for a garage exit. Or and other exits for a dwelling. I am now silent when it comes to these exits that are not defined as a required exit in accordance with the building code.

I know the NEC requires a lighting outlet at these locations but the building code does not.
 
~ & ~ & ~

From the `12 IRC,

Section R102.4 - Referenced codes and standards:
"The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements
of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in
Sections R102.4.1 and R102.4.2."

Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing
of the equipment orappliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer?s instructions
shall apply.

Section R102.4.1 - Differences: "Where differences occur between provisions of this code
and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply."

Section R102.4.2 - Provisions in referenced codes and standards:
"Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject
matter that is within the scope of this code, the provisions of this code, as applicable,
shall take precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard."


~ & ~ & ~
 
If the NEC was adopted only by reference, I see a possible argument. If the NEC was adopted separately, that IRC language has no force IMHO.
 
GoldDigger said:
Are you saying that where the building code is less restrictive than the NEC you are choosing not to enforce the NEC?
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CHAPTER 33
GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
This Electrical Part (Chapters 33 through 42) is produced and copyrighted by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and is based on the National Electrical Code? (NEC?) (NFPA), copyright National Fire Protection Association, all rights reserved. Use of the Electrical Part is pursuant to license with the NFPA.The titleNational ElectricalCode? and the acronymNEC? are registered trademarks of theNational Fire ProtectionAssociation,Quincy,
Massachusetts. See Appendix Q, International Residential Code Electrical Provisions/National Electrical Code Cross Reference.

I am saying that in this state the NEC is a reference standard to the international building code.

And the international residential building code applies to dwellings in this state which includes its own electrical provisions copy written through NFPA. I am saying that the building inspector and the building code official have determined that egress and egress illumination is a building code issue.

As specific to the OP question it was not stated that window well emergency exit is served by a ladder or a set of stairs both are common here.

So in addition to determining if the window is an exit in accordance with this section of the NEC. The stairs serving the window also come up here in discussion. There is a conflict between the NEC and the building code.

The building code official has determined that the Building code trumps the reference standard that the Electrical provisions in the residential building code are based on.
 
~ & ~ & ~

In the world of very political & "ear tickling" Residential Builders,
...IMO, you would lose the "possible argument" most of the time.
To me, I chose to not to die on that hill today......I have fought
way too many issues with Res. contractors, only to be overridden
by the elected officials time and time again.

Respectfully, ...but if you chose to have that argument, please
come back here and let us know how you fared. :cool:

~ & ~ & ~
 
I would submit that an exit from a residential building either from a second story or basement with stairs to grade are in fact have grade level access. IRC & NEC would agree on illumination of stairs. To pick & choose which code is correct seems to ignore the life safety intent.

The answer I have concluded from my original post is no illumination needed from emergency egress windows.
 
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mwm1752 said:
I would submit that an exit from a residential building either from a second story or basement with stairs to grade are in fact have grade level access. IRC & NEC would agree on illumination of stairs. To pick & choose which code is correct seems to ignore the life safety intent.

The answer I have concluded from my original post is no illumination needed from emergency egress windows.
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That?s just it the IRC deals with egress stairs and emergency exit stairs (window well) differently, also there is a section for special stairs that include bulkhead stairs .

These categories are exempt from the prescriptive design criteria that you would see with normal egress stairs. You could expect to see these stairs with a larger rise and smaller tread than other stair dimensions in a dwelling.

Window wells and bulk head exits are specifically exempt from illumination requirements in the residential building code.
These stairways are not consider part of the egress through a dwelling and are also exempt from the prescriptive design as mention before.

It may be said that the NEC exempts window well exits the same way that the IRC does , but that is subjective and more so for the stairs that lead to grade from a window well exit when that option is used instead of a ladder

Also worth making note of the IRC only has requirements for illumination for required egress exits. A single family dwelling only has one required exit. All other provided exits, if not emergency exits are not required exits. In fact a man door when coming from a garage could not be a egress exit from a dwelling when applying the building code.

There are no life safety issues associated with all these other entrances and exits from the building code prospective since these other normal entrances and exits are not required to be there.
 
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