reverse feeding large transformers

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dj_a_2001

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Hi,
I am a commercial electrician. I have a question about reverse feeding a transformer at medium voltage. We never get into the medium voltage work. 480 volts is about the highest voltage we work with.
I eavesdropped on a discussion the other day while at a code change class. It started getting me thinking and thought I would ask here. A pretty large facility is expanding. They have some sort of distribution equipment, switchgear, something that is running at 12,470. Big stuff in my book. What ever they want to energize does not have final power installed yet. Like I said, I just heard bits and pieces. It kind of caught my attention when I heard about the 12,470. The other interesting thing was the amount of power they needed. It was something like a Meg of power. They were thinking about running two 500 KW gen sets and were looking into seeing about buying a used Xform on E-bay or somewhere until final power could be up and running. They were having a hard time finding a step up Xform, but there were a lot of step down Xforms in the size they wanted. I am sure it must have been Delta ? Delta. I can only imagine they were thinking about just reverse feeding it. I think they were getting 480 Delta from the generators. They were talking very casual about it, but it would have scared me to death. The first thing that came to mind was 110.3. But beyond that, was it even safe to reverse something like that? After thinking about it some more, I realized I don?t know very much about transformers. I understand electrical theory, turn ratio, magnetic induction, all the code issues of feeding transformers, but that is all by the book, but I honestly couldn?t come up with a problem with it. Would it be safe to say that a distribution transformer could be reverse fed in this example and be perfectly safe if fused correctly?? I guess it?s an engineering question, heck maybe I should know the answer, but I thought this forum would be a good place to ask.
I hope I gave enough information to formulate an opinion.
 
Yes it is fine to reverse feed a higher voltage transformer. A transformer is a transformer, but one tends to be more careful as the voltage gets higher. I know of a case where a 69 kV to 13 kV was reverse feed for a few days to supply 69 kV in order to take a transmission line out for maintenance. It basically works the same with considerations going for amps, impedance, etc. as any other pot. Relaying and protection is also something that has to be looked at when reversing cause it could change the protection scheme up.
 
There are numerous issues to consider when backfeeding a transformer. It will work, but often not the way you'd think. I've backfed 480 volt to 120/208 volt transformers, but would be careful about higher voltage units.

Inrush is different when backfeeding, common stepdown connections are unsuitable for step up, etc.

I am also surprised to hear the generators provide delta power.

Others in the forum have very specific thoughts about backfeeding as well.

Jim T
 
Temporary back feeding transformers as in the site you mentioned is not uncommon, buit takes some care in implementing

One item of concern would proper grounding of the new secondary and removal of ground/bond jumpers on the primary.

The second as mentioned would be over current protection and/or protective relaying. Inrush currents are higher inverse time current relay might need to be adjusted, the reverse power or differential relaying might need to be modified and often in large transformers there is a ground fault issue (with zero sequence GFPE) as inrush currents are not zero sequence at inrush.
(I have little engineering data to back this last statement, but base it upon experience).
 
I have used a couple transformers several times to cut voltage drop. If we are building a development, I have used a xformer (480 / 120) as a step up at one house that is complete, ran conductors through trees to the next house where I used another xformer to step it back down for use.
 
Paul B said:
. . . I have used a xformer (480 / 120) as a step up at one house that is complete, ran conductors through trees to the next house where I used another xformer to step it back down for use.
Why does that thought make my neck-hairs stand up?
 
Ditto

Ditto

"Why does that thought make my neck-hairs stand up?
__________________
Larry B. Fine
Master Electrician
Richmond, VA "

Amen, Larry B. Fine

Reminds of being called to golf corse because of a problem with a drinking fountain that had been replaced twice. It was originally a 120v 15a 350' run from a pump house, fed with 2#10 direct burial. The previous electrician tried to solve the VD problem by installing a 120/480v xfmr at the pump house so the voltage would be correct when it got to the drinking fountain.
 
Only??

The final solution was 3#1 awg. DB. Like most of my jobs. I learned another lesson here also.
The irrigation contractor had a slitter/shaker that he helped us with. We set the reels up on back and it and it just layed them underground, it was one of the easiest underground installations I ever did. We threaded our cables around the sandtraps, trees, and shrubs.
I never would of thought of that myself.
 
DHkorn said:
Only??

The final solution was 3#1 awg. DB.
The irrigation contractor had a slitter/shaker that he helped us with. We set the reels up on back and it and it just layed them underground, it was one of the easiest underground installations I ever did. We threaded our cables around the sandtraps, trees, and shrubs.
I never would of thought of that myself.


I've never seen a "slitter/shaker" that would slice earth and bury conductors 24" deep.
NEC 300.5
Must be a new design.
steve
 
I know of a hospital that had a 11KV ring round the premises, with several decent sized LV transformers. This was an old English mental hospital, so it was spread out over dozens of acres.

The backup power was an 850KVA genset (415V) into a transformer, and the ATS was an 11KV ATS, so utility or locally transformed 11KV to the ring. The 11KV ATS was scary, open yard stuff.
 
Back feeding transformers

Back feeding transformers

When planning on back feeding transformers the type and size has to be correct. I did a job a few years ago that the utility company was late being able to hook up a new sub station. The station transformer was 5000 KVA and 23000 to 12470 Delta hookup on primary and secondary. The installation had to be completed and operating by the end of the year for the owner to collect a large energy credit. In the installation at the existing service entrance was a 500 KVA 12470 to 240 Volt Delta pad mount transformer. Where the new load was to be installed there was a 1500 KVA 12470 to 480/277 Volt pad mount transformer. To enable the operation to run before the end of the year we temporarily connected the 500 KVA transformer to the existing 240 Volt 3 phase service.

When the temporary was energized at the existing service we were able to send 12470 Volts underground, about 500 feet, to the new 1500 KVA transformer thus energizing the new equipment. The equipment consisted of 6 100 Hp. Hydraulic pumps and auxiliary equipment. With limited amount of temporary power available at the existing service we would only be able to operate some of the hydraulic pumps. We notified the major users in the area that a brown out may happen during our operation. We were able to energize the two transformers and make the energy savings equipment operate to the satisfaction of the inspectors that were on site. The transformers were protected by a S & C switch gear with fuses.

This is an example of back feeding existing transformers and successfully making the installation work. The utility company hooked up the sub station later in January after the temporary installation was removed. The total installation consisted of the 5000 KVA station transformer, a 500 KVA roof mounted pad mount transformer, a 500 KVA pad mount transformer at the existing service and the new 1500 KVA pad mount transformer. The complete installation was underground from the station transformer to each of the other transformers.
 
I have run into this situation where the facility is 230 3 ph w/ high leg. Some sparky used a 480 30 KVa on a 240 line. He used x1, x2, x3, for line and H1, H2, H3 for Load. The result is, this facility needs 480 to test machinery and it's equiped w 240 3 ph.

The current scheme we have is a stepdown transformer that is used as a step up transformer, with the exception of getting 525 volts! and it fried a VFD under test. Luckily, I wasn't here for this installation, however I inherited it.

This IS an issue. These guys spent 8K for nothing?

Please advise.
 
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