reverse power flow.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Greeting all,

when and what cause the power to reverse flow. Is it due to fault or another issue.
Does it happen in radial system or it only happens in grid and network system.
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
HE -
My response is based on the small systems I deal with - Multiple generators 5 - 25MW total

...when and what cause the power to reverse flow. ...
The gen driver is not putting out enough power to overcome the gen windage and friction. So, the gen looks like a synchronous motor to the grid and power flows from the grid to the gen to hold the speed synchronous.

... Is it due to fault or another issue. ....
I have not run into any cases where the gen protective relay took the gen off line for reverse power, and the cause of the reverse power was a fault. But, I am out of my expertise in this area - so, I don't know.

...Does it happen in radial system or it only happens in grid and network system.
All of the systems I work with are radial. so, I don't know. For the reverse power trips I have seen, it would nopt have mattered is the system was radial or grid.

cf
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
HE -
My response is based on the small systems I deal with - Multiple generators 5 - 25MW total


The gen driver is not putting out enough power to overcome the gen windage and friction. So, the gen looks like a synchronous motor to the grid and power flows from the grid to the gen to hold the speed synchronous.


I have not run into any cases where the gen protective relay took the gen off line for reverse power, and the cause of the reverse power was a fault. But, I am out of my expertise in this area - so, I don't know.


All of the systems I work with are radial. so, I don't know. For the reverse power trips I have seen, it would nopt have mattered is the system was radial or grid.

cf

thanks for nice information and I am also looking for more information. If I found any more information, I will share it.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I have only heard the phrase ?reverse power? used in the context of two or more power sources that are operating in parallel, and that are thereby sharing the load. Once they are connected in parallel, their frequencies and voltages will necessarily be locked into synchronization. If the paralleled sources are generators, then you change the amount of load being carried by any one machine by using the controls that would raise or lower its frequency or its voltage, had it be operating independently. If you lower these controls too much, it can cause power to flow into it from the other machines. That can be harmful. If a generator that is in parallel with others experiences an internal fault, then the others will send vast great deals of energy into the faulted machine. That can be very harmful. The paralleling gear to which the generators are connected, or the generator breaker controls themselves, will have relaying systems designed to trip a generator off line, should it be receiving power from the other parallel sources.

You can also see a reverse power condition when two or more transformers are operating in parallel. You won?t have any frequency or voltage controls for transformers, of course, so the degree to which they share the load will depend mostly on their internal impedance values. Here again, if one transformer experiences an internal fault, then the others that are in parallel with it will feed energy into the fault point. Two or more transformers in parallel would be commonly called a ?transformer network.? The device that is used to protect each transformer against a reverse power condition is called a ?network protector.?
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Greeting all,

when and what cause the power to reverse flow. Is it due to fault or another issue.
Does it happen in radial system or it only happens in grid and network system.
CF has already given an explanation for the power generation field. It isn't my particular area of expertise although we do make static exciters for synchronous machines (both motors and generators) in the few MW to a few tens of MW range.

There are many other situations where the flow of power reverses by design rather than as a result of a fault. A paper machine rewinder is one example.
All of the drives are four quadrant and the unwind operates mostly in the regen mode during steady state operation. But the dynamic performance required for acceleration and deceleration require it to be capable of moving seamlessly from motoring to generating. Power flow is reversed.
 

mpross

Senior Member
Location
midwest
directional element 32 - protective relaying

directional element 32 - protective relaying

H-E,

Check out this relay... it is used for directional relaying.

http://www.selinc.com/sel-547/

SEL is a GREAT source of information... check out some of their white papers, and application notes when you get a chance.

br/matt
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
100418-1231 EST

Ham:

Visit the following sites on the time line of events relative to the great eastern blackout of 2003:
http://www.nerc.com/docs/docs/blackout/BlackoutSummary-Draft-6b.pdf
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2399745/ITC-Analysis-of-Grid-Collapse

Do you ever sleep?

.

Gar:

You since I have graduated from the university which ranks 6570 in the world. Do our professor worked so hard on us but we were lack of material to study. Since I came to Ukraine and got good interent and I started to study with myself and it takes me alot of time to adjust my self like you all.
 

SG-1

Senior Member
Charlie b's post was excellent. I would like to add that I usually see 32 ( reverse power ) relays on main breakers in medium voltage when 2 or more mains are present. This is also where 67 ( directional overcurrent ) relays appear.

Baslier Electric is another manfacturer of 32 ( reverse power ) relays. Many modern multi-function relays also have this ability built in, just turn it on and enter the settings.

Use this to search google for more information on the transformer protection Charlie mentioned. You can get an idea of the reverse power trip sensitivity.

instruction+Cutler-Hammer+MPCV.

Then select the instructions for the MPCV relay.

Richards is the only other manufacturer of network protectors I know of.
Tempo used to make a NP relay, they may still be around.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
100418-2142 EST

Ham:

You may not understand ZOG's joke. The University of Michigan is in Ann Arbor, and Michigan State is in East Lansing. These two are arch rivals in sports. Other big rivals of the University of Michigan are Ohio State in Columbus, Ohio, and Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana. You can see a picture of Michigan Stadium at
http://stadiumaerialphotography.com/
http://tidingsspot.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/michigan-stadium.jpg
This stadium seats about 110,000 people. My shop is about a mile from it, and my home about 2.5 miles.

The University of Michigan has a large Engineering School and is large in other areas. There are very large research projects here. One major development in the 1950s was side looking radar. Very high resolution. Presently school assets for plant and equipment probably exceed 2 billion dollars with about one half in the medical school.

My particular sequence was Dearborn Junior College, Michigan, University of Colorado, US Navy, and University of Michigan.

While a student at the U of M and working at the Electronics Defense Group I developed N.P.Psytar, later I worked on an improved ignition system to fire fouled plugs in 12 to 1 compression engines, and secure communication. N.P.Psytar stood for Noise Programmed Psychophysical Tester and Recorder. This was used for fundamental research by Wilson P. Tanner on signal detectability of the human auditory system. These were the days of vacuum tubes and I had to develop a gating circuit for an audio sine wave that introduced no DC component or switching transients. Not easy then, today it is duck soup. (Teaching you a little English slang here.) Various levels of white noise with signal pulses of different frequencies, amplitude, duration, and phase angle were presented to the test subject. Essentially the signal was buried in the continuous background white noise. The subject being tested knew when the signal was supposed to present by a light, but they did not know whether it was there or not. That was what was randomized.

A picture of N.P.Psytar is shown at photo P21 at
http://beta-aa.com/misc_photos.html

.
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Thanks Gar:

It was really interesting. Yea, in the beginning, I could not understand by this word. So, thank you for explaination really interesting.
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Thanks Gar:

It was really interesting. Yea, in the beginning, I could not understand by this word. So, thank you for explaination really interesting.
 

richxtlc

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
I have only heard the phrase ?reverse power? used in the context of two or more power sources that are operating in parallel, and that are thereby sharing the load. Once they are connected in parallel, their frequencies and voltages will necessarily be locked into synchronization. If the paralleled sources are generators, then you change the amount of load being carried by any one machine by using the controls that would raise or lower its frequency or its voltage, had it be operating independently. If you lower these controls too much, it can cause power to flow into it from the other machines. That can be harmful. If a generator that is in parallel with others experiences an internal fault, then the others will send vast great deals of energy into the faulted machine. That can be very harmful. The paralleling gear to which the generators are connected, or the generator breaker controls themselves, will have relaying systems designed to trip a generator off line, should it be receiving power from the other parallel sources.

You can also see a reverse power condition when two or more transformers are operating in parallel. You won?t have any frequency or voltage controls for transformers, of course, so the degree to which they share the load will depend mostly on their internal impedance values. Here again, if one transformer experiences an internal fault, then the others that are in parallel with it will feed energy into the fault point. Two or more transformers in parallel would be commonly called a ?transformer network.? The device that is used to protect each transformer against a reverse power condition is called a ?network protector.?

A generator can also experience reverse power when the prime mover trips off line leaving the gen to run as a synchronous motor. The 32 relay then trips the gen circuit breaker. This is routinely done on larger steam turbine units when they want to take them off line they trip the turbine and let the reverse power relay trip the gen cb.
On a large power transformer the reverse power relay will trip for a phase-to-phase fault on the primary (delta) and for a phase-to-phase or phase-to-ground on the secondary (wye) if capable of being backfed. A reverse power trip can also occur if there is circulating current between two or more transformers connected on the primary side, and the load phase angle on the secondary side on one of the transformers is with the tripping quadrant of the 67 relay, approx 45 deg.
For a network system, not only will the master relay trip for a fault on the primary feeder supplying the network transformer, but will also oper the network protector when the voltage on the network is higher than the network transformer secondary maintaining the secondary network within its desired limits. The reverse happens when the network voltage is too low, the network protector closes and provides additional suppport for the networK.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top