Rewire Panel Board To Change Lighting Circuits from 480 to 277 VAC?

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a0128958

Member
Location
Plano, TX, USA
I'd like to have a panel board changed from supplying 480 VAC single phase circuits to supplying 277 VAC single phase circuits (for outside lighting at an auto dealership: replacing 1000W MH with 265W LED fixtures).


Givens:

1.) it's a 4-wire wye 480/277 VAC supply to the panel board,

2.) it's a 480/277 VAC designed panel board (i.e. it has a neutral bus),

3.) the existing circuit breakers are 30A 480 VAC 3-pole (supplying 480 VAC single phase to existing lighting circuits).

4.) wire size out to fixtures is sized to meet code requirements at the time of original installation (about 5 years ago).a


My questions are:

1.) Is this permissible (i.e. it can be done in a code compliant manner)?

2.) Is it an economically reasonable alternative to purchasing at $50 per fixture adder to contain 480 to 277 VAC transformers (61 fixtures total)?

3.) WRT the panel board, would conversion effort be limited to rewiring it (noting additional effort is needed out in parking area to appropriate mark/tape the neutral), or?

4.) Would the 30A 480 VAC 3-pole circuit breakers need to be replaced with something else?


Would really appreciate some assistance.

Many thanks!

Best regards,

Bill
 

a0128958

Member
Location
Plano, TX, USA
Correction

Correction

I mistyped above. The existing circuit breakers are 480 VAC 2-pole; they're not 3-pole as I typed above in two different places.

I missed the 15 minute window to edit my post above - I'm sorry for the additional posting here.

Best regards,

Bill
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Not having a neutral conductor out to the fixtures in the existing installation is a major problem, IMO.
 

a0128958

Member
Location
Plano, TX, USA
What is the wiring method between the fixtures and the panel?

I believe it's (3) #10 wires per circuit - two non-black colored hot wires (480V phase to phase) and a ground all the way back to the panel board. (there's additional ground connection at each pole)

Here's a picture of the access hole opened up at the base of a lamp pole: http://www.pbase.com/aeei/image/160756753 .

And the first 9 images here: http://www.pbase.com/aeei/proj39460public are related to the field wiring that I've discussed here.

Many thanks.

Best regards,

Bill
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Is it not an option to get 347-480 rated fixtures or spec 347-480 LED ballast for the fixtures you have in mind?

480v is quite common for parking lot and street lighting with long runs and it doesn't have issues of fried ballasts from losing the neutral. 277v LED ballasts are much more fragile than coil and core 1000W ballasts and generally do not tolerate 480v for even a second.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I believe it's (3) #10 wires per circuit - two non-black colored hot wires (480V phase to phase) and a ground all the way back to the panel board. (there's additional ground connection at each pole)

Here's a picture of the access hole opened up at the base of a lamp pole: http://www.pbase.com/aeei/image/160756753 .

And the first 9 images here: http://www.pbase.com/aeei/proj39460public are related to the field wiring that I've discussed here.

Many thanks.

Best regards,

Bill
If the conductors are in a conduit, you are not permitted to re-identify one of the existing conductors as grounded conductor.
 

hbendillo

Senior Member
Location
South carolina
How many circuits do you need to change out? Strictly speaking you need to pull some new wires with a neutral and ground. Shouldn't be too painful if we are only talking a couple of circuits.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
How many circuits do you need to change out? Strictly speaking you need to pull some new wires with a neutral and ground. Shouldn't be too painful if we are only talking a couple of circuits.

It's very painful when you are locked into a per fixture price for lighting retrofit work.

I don't know if that is the OPs situation but it is a common one.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
$/fixture does not cover customer selected fixtures requiring a different voltage.

You would hope so but not always.

Here is how it works in my experience, others experiences may differ.

An energy saving company finds a company or facility that the energy savings company can make a profit from by recommending and specifying new products that are eligible for rebates (lets not go into the pros and cons of rebates here) these products may be new HVAC equipment, new building automation controls and of course new lighting options.

These companies may have little to no real electrical experience and select the products that are approved for rebates. Then they sell the virtues on the operators of the facility if they give the green light the energy savings company looks for bids from ECs. They always want a per fixture price. If the estimating department is on the ball they write the proposal with a ton of exclusions to protect us from the unexpected. At this point we have it pretty well written to cover are butt.

However ECs new to this will often be burned and I firmly believe the energy savings companies know this and it is why they are always looking for newbies.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Boy, this is a tough one. One thing that can be guaranteed, someone is willing to come in and re-identify the wires in the panel and the fixture head, and be done with it. Nice little profit. The right answer is clearly, you SHALL pull new wires for all the neutrals. So the real question is, do you? and if you don't what extent are you going to go to in labeling. I am not in this situation, but I can admit that I would consider, (mind you consider), pulling grey wires up the poles, spray painting the existing wires grey at pole base and panel, and making SURE there are no J boxes I have missed. Yes, it is illegal, but I see nothing unsafe about it.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
An energy saving company finds a company or facility that the energy savings company can make a profit from by recommending and specifying new products
They must be the ones who take a dim view on my comments about lack of savings from LEDs or that they do so through cutting output.

These companies may have little to no real electrical experience and select the products that are approved for rebates.

We weren't told what the exact fixtures are, but if wrong voltage fixtures were selected and there is a 480v version or a comparable rebate qualifying model with 480v LED ballast, getting those instead might be negotiable.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
They must be the ones who take a dim view on my comments about lack of savings from LEDs or that they do so through cutting output.

I know you are obsessed with this to the point of having a closed mind but I will point out again that the customers we have done this work for are satisfied.

It is not always about the energy savings, sometimes it is for public relation reasons, sometimes it is about getting new and modern looking fixtures to update the looks of their facility at a vastly reduced price due to the rebates.

As far as energy savings the wattage drops and the humans feel the light level remains the same or increases. Don't bother showing me how a light meter disagrees with this assessment. Lighting is not installed to satisfy a meter, it is installed to satisfy the humans working under them.

If you are a business it would be ridiculous not to take advantage of the rebates even if you disagree with the reasons for the rebate programs.


We weren't told what the exact fixtures are, but if wrong voltage fixtures were selected and there is a 480v version or a comparable rebate qualifying model with 480v LED ballast, getting those instead might be negotiable.

For sure, it could be negotiable depending on what the contract between the EC and the energy company stipulates and again I think these energy companies tend to pray on inexperienced ECs that agree to vague terms. But even if fixable it wastes labor hours finding the fixture will not work etc.

Usally the energy company presents it to the EC as a 'one for one direct replacement' but when the material arrives and you are on the job you find you are pulling out 8' fixtures and replacing them with 4' fixtures which is a real drag if they are surface piped. Or the original outside flood is a tennon mount and the replacement is not etc.

Again, this is just my own personal experience over about 15 years of doing this stuff. Before LEDs it was HIDs to T8s, than T12s to T5s etc.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I know you are obsessed with this to the point of having a closed mind but I will point out again that the customers we have done this work for are satisfied.

It is not always about the energy savings, sometimes it is for public relation reasons, sometimes it is about getting new and modern looking fixtures to update the looks of their facility at a vastly reduced price due to the rebates.

As far as energy savings the wattage drops and the humans feel the light level remains the same or increases. Don't bother showing me how a light meter disagrees with this assessment. Lighting is not installed to satisfy a meter, it is installed to satisfy the humans working under them.

We still have plenty of Energy Retrofit Sales companies that cold call small/medium businesses and even now the biggest persuasion is still "comparable performance" with "lots less watt" that credit "LED technology". Decent light meters are designed to match our eyes response. At very low light level, we see bluish light as brighter. It was common for Energy Retrofit Sales companies to pitch 6500K lamps crediting induction or LED technology, rather than the 6500K. That was when white LEDs were only available in 6500K.

You can get the same effect with 6500K T8 or CFLs we had for ever. They're still available, but they don't sell much. 3500K and 4100K dominate the commercial lamp market. Most people simply don't care for 6500K. Another common Energy Retrofit LED sales trick is using search light beam fixtures that aim straight down like a flashlight to get a good horizontal FC level while cutting down wattage. High bay fixtures have been available under many different beam angles, but we don't use super narrow beam fixtures, because it reduces the vertical FC and lowers the overall lighting quality.

Some LED highbays are 5,500K. I think it is for the brightness perception.

If you are a business it would be ridiculous not to take advantage of the rebates even if you disagree with the reasons for the rebate programs.

I've seen my share of LED retrofits gone horrible. Shadow casts, ghostly bluish white atmosphere and poor uniformity.

Usally the energy company presents it to the EC as a 'one for one direct replacement' but when the material arrives and you are on the job you find you are pulling out 8' fixtures and replacing them with 4' fixtures which is a real drag if they are surface piped. Or the original outside flood is a tennon mount and the replacement is not etc.

I have to say 277v fixtures when the power to pole is 480v would be considered wrong fixtures. Just like motels getting 277v PTACs when their outlets are 208v.

Again, this is just my own personal experience over about 15 years of doing this stuff. Before LEDs it was HIDs to T8s, than T12s to T5s etc.

There is one fact we can probably agree. MH lamps have a very significant lumen depreciation, so design takes this into consideration and voltage has a significant effect on output unless you're using CWA ballasts. The big leap for fluorescent lamps was the electronic ballast.

We can also probably agree that many customers are probably not made aware that 220W fluorescent T5 system is comparable to 175W LED system they're pitching as a replacement for their 440W input MHs.

Modern electronic ballasts provide regulation and voltage variation has zero effect on light effect. Combined with lamps having higher than 90% lumen maintenance over their life and redundancy of having multiple lamps per fixture, it can be designed much leaner and essentially eliminate the need to over light to keep room for depreciation. This covers most of why 220W of fluorescent replaces MH that uses 440W. Fluorescent already offers instant on, instant restrike. These are not selling points that separate LEDs vs fluorescent.

Both fluorescent and LED electronic ballasts isolate output from line voltage variations. Good linear T5 and t8 fixtures approach 95% light utilization. LEDs have worse lumen maintenance than T8s, but they're closing the gap. While T8s displaced T12s, T8s and T5s co-exist for different applications rather than replacing.

As of now, the best LEDs are only about 20% energy reduction over latest T5/T8s, but cost many times more and a 20% reduction from 220W to 176W doesn't quite justify the price even when you're replacing MHs. Ripping out T5/T8 to replace with LEDs is out of question.

Fluorescent lamps are not practical for street lighting and current HID directional fixtures have terrible reflector efficiency, so LEDs have the advantage for this application.
 
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