Rivets in Panelboard Breaker Mounts

[CutToTheChase]

I've recently come across an Eaton PRL 4 Panelboard with an interesting quirk. This was an 800A 208Y/120V 3Ø panelboard installed 10/2007. It originally had 6 breakers and no other main service disconnect upstream.

We're adding a main service disconnect on the exterior of the building in order to add a 200A breaker & a 100A breaker feeding new panels in the addition. When the EC went to install the breakers, we ran into rivets in every one of the breaker mounting holes (see photos).

I can only think of a couple of reasons why these might be here. My second thought is Eaton was worried about buswork capacity, and wanted to avoid adding loads. The label lists the panel at 800A and even with the addition loads we're nowhere near that.

My first thought was the rivets were added to limit the breakers to (6), forcing the compliance of NFPA 70's 230.71. I'm unsure if Eaton would have done these rivets, or if the original installer may have done it to comply with an inspector.

Has anyone ever seen anything like this?
And, in your opinion, would removing these rivets compromise the gear's UL Listing?

 

[infinity]

Is this photos of the maximum 6 service disconnects?

 

[jim dungar]

My guess is they are from the factory, to minimize the addition of breakers which would violate the 6 circuit rule for the SUSE label.

Although it is possible a local AHJ required them.

 

[Pinnie]

Pretty interesting

 

[electrofelon]

Yes interesting. I would have no problem drilling out the rivets and proceeding. Don't ask or tell anybody, just do it and be done with it.

 

[Pinnie]

Yes interesting. I would have no problem drilling out the rivets and proceeding. Don't ask or tell anybody, just do it and be done with it.

Uhhh

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Have seen that many times where a panel ordered for use as service equipment with six factory installed breakers.
If you drill them out, you have to be very careful not to damage the threads in the bus fingers.
I think I would but new bus fingers before trying to drill the rivets out.

 

[electrofelon]

Have seen that many times where a panel ordered for use as service equipment with six factory installed breakers.
If you drill them out, you have to be very careful not to damage the threads in the bus fingers.
I think I would but new bus fingers before trying to drill the rivets out.

I am surprised. i assumed what the OP has would be something an AHJ made them do. I have never seen a defeat like that in a factory order panelboard. Do you know if that is in the product standard? If its not, I dont see why they would bother to do it.

 

[Fred B]

I would think any such alteration would a violation of the listing of the panel as it is likely a one off design and individually listed. Then at that point the AHJ would likely be within his right require a total replacement for violating the listing. Recommend reaching out to Eaton to determine any means that would not violate the listing to accommodate what it is you need to accomplish.

 

[infinity]

I would think any such alteration would a violation of the listing of the panel as it is likely a one off design and individually listed. Then at that point the AHJ would likely be within his right require a total replacement for violating the listing. Recommend reaching out to Eaton to determine any means that would not violate the listing to accommodate what it is you need to accomplish.

Isn't it possible that it came from the factory with the rivets?

 

[electrofelon]

I would think any such alteration would a violation of the listing of the panel as it is likely a one off design and individually listed. Then at that point the AHJ would likely be within his right require a total replacement for violating the listing.

Precisely why you just drill out the rivets, dont ask or tell anybody and move on.

 

[electrofelon]

And if we are going into the "listing violation" nonsense, it goes both ways: those could have been installed by the electrician, and are a listing violation as they are not approved by eaton to be in there, better get them out!

 

[LarryFine]

What a riveting discussion!

 

[Fred B]

Isn't it possible that it came from the factory with the rivets?

Precisely why you just drill out the rivets, dont ask or tell anybody and move on.

Some research looks like this panel PRL4 is a "As Designed" from the MFG as a custom built unit. Would seem rivets would have been placed based on some original specification for the panel and each panel individually "listed". Can't say reason original specs provided to the MFG would have included this particular design. But There are available adaptations for full branch breaker setup or a multiple of other configurations including either fuse switch of breaker style setups.

 

[jim dungar]

Would seem rivets would have been placed based on some original specification for the panel and each panel individually "listed".

Unlikely anyone would pay for a one off listing.

Decades ago stuff like this was pretty common in boilerplate specifications where the intent was to reduce the chance a small panelbuilders would win a contract for a 'government' contract. The major manufacturers would have included this type of circuit limiting in the overall panel listing as a factory mod.

 

[infinity]

These types of panels are often built by third party manufacturers (like a switchboard company) using name brand components like Eaton. I've seen them come with rivets in the holes. Sometimes those bus stabs cannot handle two large ampacity breakers opposite each other so there will be rivets and/or heat shrink covering the holes to prevent an additional breaker being installed in the future.

We once had the world's worst electrcial inspector on a job. The entire 60 stroy building was built with panels from a huge switchboard company Lincoln Electric Products using all Eaton components. The inspector came in and wrote up a violation for hundreds of panels because the label on the panel said Lincoln Electric Products and the circuit breakers were Eaton. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[electrofelon]

Unlikely anyone would pay for a one off listing.

Decades ago stuff Like thus was pretty common in boilerplate specifications where the intent was to reduce the chance a small panelbuilders would win a contract for a 'government' contract. The major manufacturers would have included this type of circuit limiting in the overall panel listing as a factory mod.

Perhaps it's an issue of terminology, but I order "custom" panel boards from Siemens all the time. I doubt they are getting a UL listing for each of these. Most of the "customness" is just getting it factory assembled with the quantity of various breaker frame strap kits that I specify. These kits are typically available and I could have bought a factory assembled stock panel board, bought the mounting/strap/finger kits and configured it myself. However there are some configurations that can't be done in the field. I'm not sure why this is. Are some of these fabricated on an individual basis? For example once I needed 3 port lugs for an existing Siemens P3 panel. Siemens said it can only be done at the factory and they can't send me the parts. Also some main breakers have to be factory installed and they can't send you parts to install them in the field.

 

[robertd]

Perhaps it's an issue of terminology, but I order "custom" panel boards from Siemens all the time. I doubt they are getting a UL listing for each of these. Most of the "customness" is just getting it factory assembled with the quantity of various breaker frame strap kits that I specify. These kits are typically available and I could have bought a factory assembled stock panel board, bought the mounting/strap/finger kits and configured it myself. However there are some configurations that can't be done in the field. I'm not sure why this is. Are some of these fabricated on an individual basis? For example once I needed 3 port lugs for an existing Siemens P3 panel. Siemens said it can only be done at the factory and they can't send me the parts. Also some main breakers have to be factory installed and they can't send you parts to install them in the field.

>Also some main breakers have to be factory installed and they can't send you parts to install them in the field.
What happens if the main breaker needs to be replaced at some point down the road?
Or do they have different bus bars for main breaker VS lugs or something like that?

 

[electrofelon]

>Also some main breakers have to be factory installed and they can't send you parts to install them in the field.
What happens if the main breaker needs to be replaced at some point down the road?
Or do they have different bus bars for main breaker VS lugs or something like that?

You could replace the breaker no problem, as long as your have the bus bars and other parts.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A lot of the old 3 phase 480 volt GE panels would only come with the bus fingers for the breakers that were factory installed. After seeing that the first time, we always kept the bus fingers on hand as all of the original panels in the plant I did a lot of work in were GE.

Also had a factory custom panel for a 4 wire high leg delta system. The fingers were arranged for 3 phase power only where we had specified 3 phase breakers and the rest of the fingers were arranged for just A and C phases so no wild leg in the area where you could install single pole breakers.