Road from JE to Master

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mannyb

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrician
Any books on Business inside the office such as load calculations, how to pull permits,
res/comm load analysis for existing building, and new service applications. My boss seems
threatend I find most contractors dont like talking about there business !
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
As for the permits it can be hard to know what your up against from each manicipality unless your familular with them.

Some areas insurance requierments, permit / inspection costs, documentation, and turn around time can very greatly. A few have the rule of once you do one thing you have to start cutting in smoke detectors, adding GFI's and bringing things up to todays code. It's an EC trap for the new guy in town. Oh, also contractor registration fee's and time needed to schedule / wait for an inspection. When selling a job the above should be factored in.

Many times a customer will ask how long to get the permit, how much, etc. that you have little control over. Be carefull. Sometimes the AHJ will ask for a survey of the property for what seems like a nothing job outside. Sometimes the building owner or building department can supply you with past surveys or blue prints to work off of.

The process might have worked like this where I was working:

1. Check local special requirements that would impact the job if unknown
2. Sell job & get deposit
3. Get the permit forms
4. Have owner sign permit
5. Go to the insurance company and get a bond for that job
6. Get drawings, cut sheets, surveys, etc
7. Go to building department with check book and hope you have everything
8. Pick up permit

Keep in mind the could very greatly between areas, and job types. The above relates more to a job not going thru a GC.

I can understand some EC for not wanting to explain the process. I'm sure every EC has had some extra run around and costly lessons in learning their local process. Just like pricing some don't want to give this away.

The worst can be the smallest areas that don't have the resorces to document well what they want or have a full time building department staff.

I got a letter from one city announcing a free seminar on permitming requirements. When they're required, what's required of the contractor to work in their city, what's required to be filled out and turned in. My guess is they are haveing a lot of problems. IMO it might be a sign of the times of some unemployed finding their own work out of necessity and becomming a newest and lowest priced EC in town.

As far as reading go to the city, town, etc. web site for your areas you plan on working in. Search around for their electrical code, NEC ammendments, permit requirements, contractor reqirements, and sometimes they have special information buletins about a subject like pools or panel upgrades. Some places make very little changes to the NEC, while others write their own code book. Take note what year NEC they are on.

Keep in mind that most if not all the above costs are non refundable, so again get the deposit.

One last note is I like to be carefull with leaving a copy of my liciense with anyone but the AHJ. Reason is some people have been known to use it to get the permit but hire someone elce or themselves to do the work. Or worse use it to pull a permit on a different job. A few places have special requirements to reduce this or call to verify with the EC.
 

mannyb

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrician
Road from JE to Master

Thanks for the info. I was curious about a job that my boss got recently, thats what
started this whole questions/answers of mine. He was to bid a job that was 1700sqft
with lights/recpt and new service on a multitenant lease space. I just want to know how
this would get started does the contactor decide how many l;ights/ recptacles or does that GC/ landlord. How much other than load calculations does the EC resposible to do.
I believe in my jurisdiction a EC can only design 4000sq ft then a architect/engineer has to build. I Know this question is vague just point me in the right direction with either experience or books. I have been a member for about 2 yrs. and I see only people here
are very helpful and apply Art. 110.12 to the very best of their ability.This is only question #1.
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
If it was a low dollar job the owner probably told your boss he wanted the bare minimum and just pointed to areas he wanted things. Then they argued what the bare minimum was. I can hear the owner say "Why do I need an outlet there?", "They already have 1 smoke detector", "The old service still works", "Just put the house lighting on this tenants panel", ...

Then your boss had to draw it all up and turn it in.
Idealy this would have been done between the owner and an architect before bidding but people try to push this onto the EC to save money.

There are pleanty of training items at Mike Holts site. The answers are in the first few chapters of the NEC but require experiance to interprete and see real world applications. One problem starting out in the trade is understanding the differance between company policy, improper interpitation, local amendments, and NEC.

Some questions from one masters test was being able to draw a partial residential electrical blueprint to bare code minimum. IMO it's mostly basic stuff you should know to be able to pull permits.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I was curious about a job that my boss got recently, thats what
started this whole questions/answers of mine. He was to bid a job that was 1700sqft
with lights/recpt and new service on a multitenant lease space. I just want to know how
this would get started does the contactor decide how many l;ights/ recptacles or does that GC/ landlord. How much other than load calculations does the EC resposible to do.
I believe in my jurisdiction a EC can only design 4000sq ft then a architect/engineer has to build.

OK you want to know about bidding a mulitenant lease space and what you are responsible for. There are different ways of looking a this and none of them are carved in stone.

They first thing to look at is the money side of it. You can sign a contract with the owner, tenant or the GC and make any one of these responsible for payment. First make sure that you are going to be paid or else all this can be just for the fun of it.

Once you get the money aspect of the job out of the way it's time to concentrate on the functional side of things. Every jurisdiction is different but normally there will not be an electrical only permit on a job like this. This means there will be a general contractor involved because there is more than electrical being done here and this place would need a new certificate of occupancy before a tenant can move in ( check with local authorities to see when a new certificate of occupancy is required and don't trust the GC to know what he is doing either). On a 1700 sq ft space they may want a load calculation for a new service but this is in the Code Book. This biggest load will be heating and cooling.

How to get started on a job like this? The first thing is to make contact with those wanting the work done. Look over what ever prints or drawing that they have available. Make a visit to the job site and see what actually there. Make notes of what it will actually take to make sure the job will pass all national and local codes. Don't forget about things such as emergency & exit lights or any ADA requirements.

There are two ways to try to work a job like this. One is to bid doing what they are showing on the prints and get anything else as additional work ( change orders) and the second way is to point out what will really need to be done and put it in the original bid with note of explaination.

There are no books to help with dealing with local authorities but what you can do is start getting to know them. Get to know the local inspector, the head inspector and building code official and ask questions ( don't be afraid to talk to the Fire Marshal, that's what he's there for). There is never a time when you don't have to ask questions so get used to it now. Remember we pay the salary for these public officials so make them earn their money.
 
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