Romex - Damaged or Not?

[busman]

Need opinions/experience if you have it.

Residential customer finishing the basement, but leaving the ceiling joists exposed and painted black (like many restaurants). Contractor initially painted entire ceiling flat black using an airless spray gun (latex paint) before my rough-in installation. He said he would touch it up after my install so that all was the same color. After install of my Romex and passing rough-in inspection, contractor painted the ceiling with some form of canned spray paint. When I walked in, all my Romex was shiny and I asked the contractor why he used gloss paint for the touch-up. He said he used flat paint. On further inspection, he did use flat paint, but the result on the Romex was anything but good.

The paint on the Romex does not seem to have cured properly. It is still gummy and shiny. I'm fairly sure that canned spray paint contains a large quantity of VOCs and/or petroleum distillates. I can't tell whether it has softened the PVC jacket on the Romex. It seems like it to me, but really can't be sure.

Now for the question (opinions or experience or Chemistry welcome). Does this Romex need to be replaced or not?

As always, thanks,

Mark

 

[jumper]

110.11 and 110.12(B) are the articles that seem the closest to addressing this situation that I can find in a quick search.

 

[roger]

Is this NM SIMpull by any chance? If it is I would suspect that the chemical that makes it slick has something to do with it. With that said, I wouldn't think it's damaged from a little paint but,....

I did vote that it's OK

Roger

 

[Ponchik]

Can you visually check if the sheathing is damaged? If it is then change the cable if it is not then probably it is fine.

But questions that pops in my head is, if the paint is already cured and dry will it continue to damage the sheathing?

 

[Ravenvalor]

Was the second coat of paint latex also? Could you possibly clean the jacket with a soapy watery damp rag using hot water ? Latex paint comes off fairly easy. This is a new one for me. MY initial reaction would be to call the manufacturer.

 

[petersonra]

I doubt it hurt the Romex any. I would not worry about it.

 

[GoldDigger]

Was the second coat of paint latex also? Could you possibly clean the jacket with a soapy watery damp rag using hot water ? Latex paint comes off fairly easy. This is a new one for me. MY initial reaction would be to call the manufacturer.

Is there a short or easily accessible piece you can replace or a loop you can shorten to get a sample of the jacket for the manufacturer to examine?

 

[weressl]

Need opinions/experience if you have it.

Residential customer finishing the basement, but leaving the ceiling joists exposed and painted black (like many restaurants). Contractor initially painted entire ceiling flat black using an airless spray gun (latex paint) before my rough-in installation. He said he would touch it up after my install so that all was the same color. After install of my Romex and passing rough-in inspection, contractor painted the ceiling with some form of canned spray paint. When I walked in, all my Romex was shiny and I asked the contractor why he used gloss paint for the touch-up. He said he used flat paint. On further inspection, he did use flat paint, but the result on the Romex was anything but good.

The paint on the Romex does not seem to have cured properly. It is still gummy and shiny. I'm fairly sure that canned spray paint contains a large quantity of VOCs and/or petroleum distillates. I can't tell whether it has softened the PVC jacket on the Romex. It seems like it to me, but really can't be sure.

Now for the question (opinions or experience or Chemistry welcome). Does this Romex need to be replaced or not?

As always, thanks,

Mark

Only the manufacturer could tell this for sure AND they would need to know the EXACT paint that was used and how many layers was sprayed. If the paint still have not dried - you didn't specify how long after it was applied and we don't know what the paint is - it could be the paint on its own or it could be chemical interaction between the ROMEX jacket and the paint. The ROMEX jacket itself has no insulating value.

 

[busman]

Thank You

Thank You

All,

First off, thank you to all who responded. Below is some more information that I didn't post at first because I didn't want to bias the poll results:

My opinion: Since the paint dried quickly to a flat black on all adjacent surfaces (wood and metal), I have to believe that there is a chemical reaction going on between the paint and the sheathing. There was a question about how long it was left to dry - answer is more than 24 hours and still gooey and shiny. To me, if there's a reaction, that could be an issue. With that said, the THHN conductors should be "Oil and Gasoline resistant", so I'm not worried about the insulation integrity. What I am worried about is the durability of the sheathing. As we have all seen, Romex sheathing is not nearly as thick/tough as it was 40 years ago. We've also seen the abuse it can take in unfinished basements, even when run to code. I'm talking about it being used as a clothes line, etc.

My other concern, and I could really use some help here since I am a one-man show and don't work with contractors very often, is how to resolve the issue for the customer. The details:

• This customer is a friend (as most of my customers are since I don't advertise other than word of mouth). She is acting as the GC on this basement remodel and hired the carpenter/handyman who used the paint. I believe that she should be looking for some compensation from this carpenter for degrading the quality of the installation. There aren't any contracts involved, we are all working T&M.
• I don't think it's fair to me that I should have to take the risk to energize conductors that may have been compromised. This is a risk to my insurance and reputation over something that I had no control over. Do you all typically have a clause in your contracts to cover damage by other contractors? If so, examples would be helpful. I don't have one in my standard contract, but I probably should.

Other question was about the type of paint, and unfortunately I don't know that. I was only told that it was canned spray paint.

As always, thanks for your help with this jam.

Mark

 

[growler]

As we have all seen, Romex sheathing is not nearly as thick/tough as it was 40 years ago. We've also seen the abuse it can take in unfinished basements, even when run to code. I'm talking about it being used as a clothes line, etc.

• I don't think it's fair to me that I should have to take the risk to energize conductors that may have been compromised. This is a risk to my insurance and reputation over something that I had no control over. Do you all typically have a clause in your contracts to cover damage by other contractors? If so, examples would be helpful. I don't have one in my standard contract, but I probably should.

The GC is responsible for running the job. Just because the GC is a homeowner and doesn't know what they are doing doesn't change that.

If you know in advance that a ceiling is going to be left open and they want the loft look with just a painted ceiling it would be a good idea to talk the GC into useing either EMT or MC cable in the ceiling as it paints up better and will not damage as easily.

I doubt if the paint is going to hurt the insulation on the Romex any, over the years I have seen a lot of painted cables that are still in use.

Call for a final inspection and see what the inspector has to say about it.

 

[acrwc10]

All,

First off, thank you to all who responded. Below is some more information that I didn't post at first because I didn't want to bias the poll results:

My opinion: Since the paint dried quickly to a flat black on all adjacent surfaces (wood and metal), I have to believe that there is a chemical reaction going on between the paint and the sheathing. There was a question about how long it was left to dry - answer is more than 24 hours and still gooey and shiny. To me, if there's a reaction, that could be an issue. With that said, the THHN conductors should be "Oil and Gasoline resistant", so I'm not worried about the insulation integrity. What I am worried about is the durability of the sheathing. As we have all seen, Romex sheathing is not nearly as thick/tough as it was 40 years ago. We've also seen the abuse it can take in unfinished basements, even when run to code. I'm talking about it being used as a clothes line, etc.

My other concern, and I could really use some help here since I am a one-man show and don't work with contractors very often, is how to resolve the issue for the customer. The details:

• This customer is a friend (as most of my customers are since I don't advertise other than word of mouth). She is acting as the GC on this basement remodel and hired the carpenter/handyman who used the paint. I believe that she should be looking for some compensation from this carpenter for degrading the quality of the installation. There aren't any contracts involved, we are all working T&M.
• I don't think it's fair to me that I should have to take the risk to energize conductors that may have been compromised. This is a risk to my insurance and reputation over something that I had no control over. Do you all typically have a clause in your contracts to cover damage by other contractors? If so, examples would be helpful. I don't have one in my standard contract, but I probably should.

Other question was about the type of paint, and unfortunately I don't know that. I was only told that it was canned spray paint.

As always, thanks for your help with this jam.

Mark

Where is it said that the inside conductors in NM cable is THHN ??? The best you have is a guess, based on that it looks like THHN. If I were inspecting it, I would want it replaced. It is damaged, to say "its just the jacket" seems a bit dismissive of the cable assembly.

 

[weressl]

I believe that she should be looking for some compensation from this carpenter for degrading the quality of the installation. There aren't any contracts involved, we are all working T&M.

• I don't think it's fair to me that I should have to take the risk to energize conductors that may have been compromised.

Mark, based on this assesment, you should insist that the conductors must be replaced and sugegst that the person who did the damage should absorb the fair cost of it.

 

[rbalex]

It's too bad the distinction between jacket, sheath and armor has degraded over the years.

Art 334 is a good example. The title is Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS. The outer covering is described in Section 334.100 as a "sheath". Unfortunately, the definition in Section 334.2 describes it as a "jacket." IMO the construction description is historically correct but currently ambiguous.

Historically, the distinction was a "jacket" provided mechanical protection while a "sheath" only held the conductors together. Today "...the term "jacket" refers to a continuous nonmetallic covering and "sheath" to a continuous metallic covering"[NEMA-WC 70, Part 1.2] That is more-or-less consistent with Section 334.2.

The terms became muddied sometime in the early-90's but before NEMA assumed control and content of ICEA documents. The problem was several constructions, such as some forms of MC and MI were described as having metal sheaths. Since I never used NM, I didn't recognize the ambiguity until I started advocating TC as a much more general wiring method than is currently permitted.

IMO an NM sheath does nothing more than hold the conductors in close proximity for ease of installation and electromagnetic purposes; physical protection is generally provided by location, not the sheath/jacket.

While there may be some legitimate aesthetic issues from the owner's viewpoint, unless the conductors themselves are at risk by the paint, I don't believe there is a safety issue.

 

[weressl]

It's too bad the distinction between jacket, sheath and armor has degraded over the years.

Art 334 is a good example. The title is Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS. The outer covering is described in Section 334.100 as a "sheath". Unfortunately, the definition in Section 334.2 describes it as a "jacket." IMO the construction description is historically correct but currently ambiguous.

Historically, the distinction was a "jacket" provided mechanical protection while a "sheath" only held the conductors together. Today "...the term "jacket" refers to a continuous nonmetallic covering and "sheath" to a continuous metallic covering"[NEMA-WC 70, Part 1.2] That is more-or-less consistent with Section 334.2.

The terms became muddied sometime in the early-90's but before NEMA assumed control and content of ICEA documents. The problem was several constructions, such as some forms of MC and MI were described as having metal sheaths. Since I never used NM, I didn't recognize the ambiguity until I started advocating TC as a much more general wiring method than is currently permitted.

IMO an NM sheath does nothing more than hold the conductors in close proximity for ease of installation and electromagnetic purposes; physical protection is generally provided by location, not the sheath/jacket.

While there may be some legitimate aesthetic issues from the owner's viewpoint, unless the conductors themselves are at risk by the paint, I don't believe there is a safety issue.

Very well reasoned viewpoint, as usual. My only concern was the potential casual misuse such as it was explained - clothesline(?) - where any extra, that adds physical strength, would be of some help. (I understand that it isn't sound technical reasoning, yet.......)

 

[kbsparky]

Sim-pull and other EZ-pull NM cables are wax coated. Betcha the directions on the paint tell you not to paint on such surfaces.

I don't believe there is any real "damage" to the romex. Just incompatibility with the paint on it.

 

[Daja7]

Just talked to a factory rep i know, he said according to the factory normal household paint will do no harm to the NM sheath. This seems reasonable since romex is quite often exposed to getting painted. He said the reason the paint may not dry is simply that the type of paint is not compatible witht he sheath material. Most paint will dry fine on the sheath but may not stay.
No harm. You may have to prove it if AHJ turns it down. ( i doubt it).

 

[weressl]

Just talked to a factory rep i know, he said according to the factory normal household paint will do no harm to the NM sheath. This seems reasonable since romex is quite often exposed to getting painted. He said the reason the paint may not dry is simply that the type of paint is not compatible witht he sheath material. Most paint will dry fine on the sheath but may not stay.
No harm. You may have to prove it if AHJ turns it down. ( i doubt it).

Except normal household paint is usually water-based latex. Spray paint contains sovents and that IS an issue with NM(Non-Metallic) jackets.