Romex for a pool moter - please respond

Status
Not open for further replies.
JohnE

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
Hi Guys,

A buddy of mine has a dilemma. He has wired a pool motor in a one family dwelling by running romex through the unfinished basement and changing over to PVC outdoors to the motor.

This is permitted by 680.21 A(4):

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall comply with (A)(1) unless modified for specific circumstances by (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or (A)(5).

.....


(4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

The inspector has failed him citing 680.21(A)1:

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods. The wiring to a pool motor shall comply with (A)(1) unless modified for specific circumstances by (A)(2), (A)(3), (A)(4), or (A)(5).
(1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
Type MC cable listed for the application is permitted as a wiring method for swimming pool motor circuits. This listing requirement ensures that the MC cable is suitable for the environmental and installation conditions typically encountered with swimming pool pump motors. Type MC cables listed for installation in direct sunlight or direct burial are marked to indicate suitability for such applications.
Other than cable assemblies installed on the interior of a one-family dwelling per 680.21(A)(4), wiring methods used for the supply circuit to a swimming pool pump motor must include an insulated, copper equipment grounding conductor not less than 12 AWG.

My friend showed him these sections and tried to explain that 680.21(A)4 allows this install but the inspector told him that (A)1 doesn't allow it....:-?

I guess my reason for posting this is to confirm that I am reading this section properly, and to ask many of you guys respond so that my friend can show him this thread. There are only 2 alternatives: 1. My buddy redoes the install. 2. My buddy takes the inspector to the State Board of Examiners. This seems a little extreme.

I know the inspector and thought about calling him. I'm just not sure how that would go over with him.

Any other thoughts will be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

John
 
It is a very hard issue to get involved in but if you know the inspector well I would explain that 680.21 (A)(1) is the general rule and that 680.21(A)(4) is basically an exception for one family dwellings. If he cannot see that then I would appeal to a higher authority.
 
IMHO if you are running the romex through the PVC conduit outdoors then it needs to be red tagged per 334.12
 
C3PO said:
IMHO if you are running the romex through the PVC conduit outdoors then it needs to be red tagged per 334.12
Click to expand...

I do not think that is what the op said. I believe he said that he changed over to pvc which I presume means he followed 680.21(A)(1) at that point.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I do not think that is what the op said. I believe he said that he changed over to pvc which I presume means he followed 680.21(A)(1) at that point.
Click to expand...


Oh, could be. I wasn't sure what he meant by "change over". If that is the case then I do not see a problem either.
 
Can't prove anything but early on I heard the insulation protected the conductor from the corrosive effects of the chlorine and other chemicals used in the pool.
 
jimport said:
Can't prove anything but early on I heard the insulation protected the conductor from the corrosive effects of the chlorine and other chemicals used in the pool.
Click to expand...
seeing as the spot that has the most potential for corrosion is where it is terminated and the insulation will be stripped there I don't buy it.
 
All you need is this sentence from (A)(1):
Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section.
Click to expand...
Here, in (A)(1), it is saying that you can use other materials in the locations discussed in (A)(4).
 
The answer has been givien already but I'll give my two cents.

This kind of stuff annoys me to no end. This is not an obscure rule or installation and SHOULD be very low on the list of things to worry about in this installation. :rolleyes:

Know the code, be prepared to back it up with correct info or STOP playing "inspector". :mad:
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. If things go as planned, I will be seeing the inspector tomorrow as I need a permit in that town. And I can bring it up.

And Dennis, thanks for clearing up the OP, you are correct with what I meant:
Dennis Alwon said:
I do not think that is what the op said. I believe he said that he changed over to pvc which I presume means he followed 680.21(A)(1) at that point.
Click to expand...

Thwn was installed in the pvc outdoors.
 
electricmanscott said:
The answer has been givien already but I'll give my two cents.

This kind of stuff annoys me to no end. This is not an obscure rule or installation and SHOULD be very low on the list of things to worry about in this installation. :rolleyes:

Know the code, be prepared to back it up with correct info or STOP playing "inspector". :mad:
Click to expand...

I hear you, Scott! Loud and clear.;)

The problem is that there are a ton of inspectors who are lacking in their knowledge in the areas I work. I haven't been going to the inspector meetings lately. But when I was, I couldn't believe some of the statements I'd hear. The problem is compounded by the fact that most electricians won't challenge them if they are incorrect coupled with the fact that many electricians don't know what the heck the code says anyway......

I see red when I tell an electricain he has a violation and he says "I'll do whatever you want":mad: It's not what I want, it's what the book says.

Don't get me wrong, I have also encountered a number of very sharp inspectors.:cool:

And for the record, I don't think I know it all - that's why I spend as much time here as I can.
 
jimport said:
Can't prove anything but early on I heard the insulation protected the conductor from the corrosive effects of the chlorine and other chemicals used in the pool.
Click to expand...
wouldn't the pvc protect the ground from corrosive chlorine?
 
We do this type of installation all the time.

NM in the house, change over to THHN in conduit with insulated ground.

680.21(A)(4) applies here.
 
steelersman said:
wouldn't the pvc protect the ground from corrosive chlorine?
Click to expand...
Probably not, presuming that that is indeed the reason for requiring the EGC to be insulated. A conduit will have plenty of air space (at least 60% :wink: ) that can collect any corrosive vapors from the surrounding atmosphere.
 
rich000 said:
We do this type of installation all the time.

NM in the house, change over to THHN in conduit with insulated ground.

680.21(A)(4) applies here.
Click to expand...

We do it all the time here, too. I had never heard of it getting red tagged until last week....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top