ROPE LIGHTS

[aquaholicc]

Is there anything in the code preventing me from running rope lighting from an outlet in basement through floor and base of cabinet to illuminate interior of upper cabinet? I know cord from rope light can't run through floor,but can rope light itself be ran through? thanks

 

[benaround]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

If the manaf. has had the rope light tested by a n approved testing lab, for thru the floor use,and the installation book has confirmed this in wrighting(which I highly doubt) then sure go for it.

2nd option, install a device for this light like it's your mothers house.

frank

 

[petersonra]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

unless the code specifically prohibits soemthing, it's permitted, right?

 

[roger]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Originally posted by petersonra:
unless the code specifically prohibits soemthing, it's permitted, right?

Yes, that is right, as long as there are no other prohibitions to be considered, (such as manufacturers instructions) which would probably be covered (indirectly or directly depending on opinion ) in article 90.

Roger

[ June 15, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Can you? Yes.

Would I? No.

Should you? No.

Are you going to anyway? Probably.

 

[pierre]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

This would be a good question to write to UL code corner.
They know how it has been tested, and would give a straight forward answer - to help keep this thread to under a couple of pages

 

[hurk27]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

I think this would be treated like flexible cords which can't pass through floors,walls, or ceilings
See 400.8(2)

Edited to add what I found on UL's web site:

The new Standard for Safety for Flexible Lighting Products, UL 2388, became effective on Nov. 3, 2003. The requirements build upon the previously applicable lighting requirements to address:

Insulating and protective plastic materials used,
The variety of installations that have become prevalent today,
Operating temperatures arising from installation configurations and lamping,
Overcurrent protection, and
Potential abnormal operation.
A notable change in requirements is the prohibition of lamp shunts and the cutting of the rope light in the field. Substantially increased product markings and instruction manuals are also now required. All flexible lighting products are provided with a power supply cord for connection to the source of supply and shall not be permanently secured to a building or similar structure.

The above quote is from this page:
UL info on rope lights

Note the highlighted part was done by me to show that they are not allowed to be permanently secured to a building, which is what your doing?

[ June 16, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Also this is from there Guide

ILGJ.GuideInfo Flexible Lighting Products


Guide Information for Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations

USE
This category covers flexible lighting products intended for decorative use, consisting of nonreplaceable lamps connected in series/parallel strings and enclosed within a flexible polymeric tube or extrusion.

Flexible lighting products are provided with an attachment plug for connection to a nominal 120 V, 15 or 20 A branch circuit. These lights do not have provisions for permanent mounting to a building or structure and should not be installed in a manner that can cut or damage the outer insulation. They are intended to only be connected as a complete unit and not field cut. These flexible lighting products have not been investigated for use within another enclosure.

This category also covers flexible light sculptures, which are intended for decorative use and consist of a polymeric or rigid frame to which a flexible lighting product is attached. The flexible lighting product attached to the light sculpture provides outline lighting of the figure or object created by the frame. Flexible lighting sculptures whose primary purpose is to be a sign (not decorative) are not covered under this category.

This category also covers low-voltage flexible lighting products that are intended for use with a low-voltage transformer or power supply.

Flexible lighting products are intended for dry and indoor use unless marked for damp or wet locations.

Which can be found at this link ILGJ.GuideInfo

 

[steve66]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Suppose your rope light comes with mounting clips. And say you screw the mounting clips down. Then the rope light snaps into the clips. Is that "permanently secured to a building or similar structure."???

I don't think so.

Steve

 

[celtic]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

What is "permanent"?

As far as I can tell, nothing is "permanent. (Looking for an actual definition)

 

[hurk27]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

I sent an e-mail to Tom Lichtenstein at UL and he sent a reply.

This what I asked:

Tom a question has popped up in Mike Holt's forum about the requirements of passing the lighted portion of a rope light through a floor. I would say it should follow the requirements in 400.8(2) NFPA 70 which would prohibit such installation method where the supply receptacle for the rope light is below the kitchen floor and the lighted portion of the rope it's self passes through the floor. Of course this is not spelled out in the NEC, and after looking up
ILGJ.GuideInfo
Flexible Lighting Products
All it say's is that it is not allowed to be permanently mounted to a building or structure.
Do you have any insight on this?

And this was his reply:

Hi Wayne,

I would say you are correct. Rope lights are not intended to be fished though or concealed in a floor, wall or ceiling. They are cord connected and not intended to be permanently mounted, which implies that they cannot be fished through walls, floors and ceilings. They have not been evaluated to be the equivalent of a Listed building cable.

I hope that helps.

Best Regards,

Tom Lichtenstein

 

[George Stolz]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Wayne, you have posted a lot of good information, but I'm left a little puzzled.

I see how not to, but I can't find how to install rope lights on the UL site.

 

[pierre]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

George
Try the manufacturer's website for installation instructions.

 

[hurk27]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

George
I believe that the little plastic clips suppled with the rope lights are the preferred method to secure them to the building as it allows the removal of the rope light replacement. In the one article it says that they are to be installed as a complete assembly and are not to be field cut, but one place I found that they were going to evaluate whether or not to allow units that can be cut to be only sold to qualified electricians that can be cut. I can not find where this has been done to allow them but these units are already on the market as we have installed many of them.

George
This is from the web page I posted a link to in my first post:

Rope lights were typically sold in long lengths that could be cut to the required length in the field. This allowed an electrician to install long lengths quickly. Markings were provided along the length identifying the location of the end of the series circuit, indicating where the rope light may be cut and terminated. If the rope light was cut anywhere else along its length, an entire circuit of lamps would not light. An installation kit was provided with these products, consisting of connectors for termination and installation instructions.

Since these products were originally intended for installation by an electrician, field cutting and termination was allowed with the understanding that they would be installed in accordance with the applicable electrical installation codes , subject to verification by the regulatory authority. However, in the last decade, rope lights have become increasingly popular as seasonal decorations among consumers and do-it-yourselfers.

Because of the widespread use and installation of these products, the need to update the requirements for rope lights became apparent. UL convened an industry ad hoc committee to assist in the development of a completely new standard for flexible lighting products.

This is where they were talking about letting electricans to be able to field cut rope lights:

The new Standard currently does not permit field cutting and splicing of the flexible
lamps. However, UL is considering the development of a set of requirements that would permit additional installation options, such as where professionals will be
installing the product. A Council Member expressed concern with the possibility of these cord connected
products being permanently secured. UL responded that the fastening means
permitted by the proposed Standard is not permanent.

This can be found in this PDF at this link:
34th Meating of the Electrical Counsil, May 8-9, 2001

[ June 17, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

I have to ask this. Why woud you need an electrician to "install" soemthing that is temporary and cord and plug connected? This whole thing seems like they have not really thought it through at all.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Aqua, why not just install a receptacle within the cabinet itself?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

Originally posted by petersonra:
I have to ask this. Why woud you need an electrician to "install" soemthing that is temporary and cord and plug connected? This whole thing seems like they have not really thought it through at all.

I second that.

It would seem that with some of the obscure things the NEC concerns itself with, Rope Lights would be well within the scope.

But, as you said, they're cord-and-plug-connected, which muddies everything up nicely.

 

[hurk27]

Re: ROPE LIGHTS

By Bob: I have to ask this. Why would you need an electrician to "install" something that is temporary and cord and plug connected? This whole thing seems like they have not really thought it through at all.

Bob and George

There is no requirement that certain sets are allowed by UL to be installed by anyone, but to install the sets that allow cutting of the rope for that perfect fit requires someone qualified.

But because they started seeing this:

However, in the last decade, rope lights have become increasingly popular as seasonal decorations among consumers and do-it-yourselfers. Because of the widespread use and installation of these products, the need to update the requirements for rope lights became apparent. UL convened an industry ad hoc committee to assist in the development of a completely new standard for flexible lighting products.

They wanted to add new rules like this:

The new Standard currently does not permit field cutting and splicing of the flexible
lamps. However, UL is considering the development of a set of requirements that would permit additional installation options, such as where professionals will be
installing the product.

[ June 17, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]