Rotary Phase Converters & Delta

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Little Bill

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Is the 3ø voltage derived from a rotary phase convertor from a 240/120V system all Delta? Not talking about 208/120V from a Wye source, just a single ø 240/120. I'm asking if the derived leg would be a "high leg"?
 

LarryFine

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Is the 3ø voltage derived from a rotary phase convertor from a 240/120V system all Delta? Not talking about 208/120V from a Wye source, just a single ø 240/120. I'm asking if the derived leg would be a "high leg"?
Yes, although the voltages won't be as "accurate" as a real high-leg source.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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Ok, would the opposite be true if the convertor is fed from a single ø 208/120V Wye? Meaning would the derived voltages be in a Wye configuration?
Hmmm. Let's see . . .

The input would still be L-L and without the neutral; the output voltage would probably mirror the input voltage.

That's a good question: What would be the derived phase's voltage and angle relative to the source neutral?

I think an experiment is in order. On the other hand, if you have two lines of a wye, you already have 3ph available.


A couple of weeks ago, I was asked to run a new circuit for a used band saw in a grocery store. The nameplate specified 3ph, and the cord, though 4-wire, had a 3-prong twist plug on it. I priced the job, bought a 3p 20a breaker, and a 4-prong plug, receptacle, and box and cover. I reused an existing 3/4" EMT feeding a 50a 1ph receptacle.

(I'm too tired to use the correct NEMA nomenclature.)

After I completed the installation, I turned my attention to the saw. I installed a 4-prong twist plug, noting that the red wire was the unused color. Not assuming anything, I traced the wiring inside, and discovered a static converter, and that the saw has been set up for 1ph operation. I removed the converter and wired it to match the new circuit.

I also replaced the 1p switch with a 2p switch. Only after I did all of this did the store owner put me on the phone with the equipment distributor, who informed me that the saw had been set up for use on 1ph with a static converter, and that he told the customer this. It could have run on the original 1ph circuit with just a new receptacle. Oops.

Oh, well. I got paid for my work and materials. Let the customer and distributor argue over who should foot the bill for the extra/unnecessary work, although I think that the work I did really is the better installation, since there is 3ph here. Plus, the converter was labeled 240v 1ph, not 208/240v 1ph, so I didn't really consider leaving it in on 208v.
 

GoldDigger

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My initial answer would be no since the neutral is not part of the wiring.

But, it is interesting. I wonder what the voltage from the derived leg to neutral would be?
1. As noted, there is really no such thing as a single phase 120/208. It would be a two out of three phase source and the third phase could easily be derived using a transformer.
2. Assume that a rotary converter is used anyway, with its two input terminals connected to the two available hot conductors.
3. The derived phase will either form an equilateral triangle with one side being the 208 phase voltage and the triangle and other vertex facing toward the neutral point or away from it.
4. In the former case, the derived phase voltage phasor will end at a point on the far side of the neutral from that side. The voltage to neutral will be less than 120V. In the latter case, the derived phase voltage phasor will end up even farther from the neutral than either of the input points. The voltage to input neutral will be more than 120V. In neither case would a derived phase to neutral connection be useful for any realistic load.
 

norcal

Senior Member
1. As noted, there is really no such thing as a single phase 120/208. It would be a two out of three phase source and the third phase could easily be derived using a transformer.
2. Assume that a rotary converter is used anyway, with its two input terminals connected to the two available hot conductors.
3. The derived phase will either form an equilateral triangle with one side being the 208 phase voltage and the triangle and other vertex facing toward the neutral point or away from it.
4. In the former case, the derived phase voltage phasor will end at a point on the far side of the neutral from that side. The voltage to neutral will be less than 120V. In the latter case, the derived phase voltage phasor will end up even farther from the neutral than either of the input points. The voltage to input neutral will be more than 120V. In neither case would a derived phase to neutral connection be useful for any realistic load.


Art 455.9 prohibits single phase loads being connected to the manufactured phase.
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
Would I be close if I said the manufactured leg would be around 300V to ground or about 60V to ground? This is assuming you get a perfect manufactured leg (which I believe is not real world).
 
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