Rough day...

[e57]

Ever have one of those days when you realize you should have stayed at that summer job printing T-shirts and further studied art? This is the end of that day for me...

Spent nearly 2 days completing a 2" conduit run in footing at the last minute for a service conduit move, and change because the existing neutrals are rotten - surrounded by a frantic concrete crew, on a site that is a wall to wall tripping hazard hanging up-side down in forms and steel I get it done. I tell the concrete foreman exactly what I'm doing and he is right there next to me. The GC has been on the job in and out and spent time talking to me while I did this run. The Concrete contractor has also been in and out, knew where all this was running.... This morning as I am tidying up loose and and working on a separate conduit in another pour - he pulls this... "Ya know is there anywhere else you could go with that...." A: "Well not really at this point - it's done, and I have inspection at 1pm - but if you NEED me to move it, you need to tell me right now." So we talk about it and it basically comes down to the Building inspector, and the Engineer. (Who canc'ed out and won't be by until Wednesday - a job delay of 4 working days for the pour either way...) The building inspector comes by and says he can not find any code prohibiting where I ran the conduit, but leaves it up to the Engineer...

I talked to the Engineer for over a half-hour and sent pictures that we discussed over the phone. He too can not find any code or example of why or why I coundn't run it through there. (But at the word of the concrete contractor is hesitant to say yes or no...) He tells me he'll have to look into it some more, but regrets that he can't get out there himself to look at it... (I can hear dogs and children playing in the backround...)

So anyway time is ticking... And everyone who has been out to this job and seen what I was doing and completed one whole working day before, is now getting antsy, and for lack of better words - 'Accelerated'. Now it's "why would you even think of running through there in the first place!" (Who only an hour before was asking the concrete guy what his issue was with it...)

Time ticking away.... Near 1pm the 'accelerated' GC is having a fit in general and especially about me, and Electricians in general, and all our change orders - blah blah blah. 'And we caused the job this job delay, and he's gonna take it out of us..." I'm quick to remind him that the pour is delayed from the original already due to the Engineer not coming until Wendnesday.... And that he is yet to say anything difinative about my pipe work.

1:07 PM I'm waiting for the electrical inspector, and the Engineer calls, and repeats what he said about not being able to find any code, etc that would prohibit it, "But wants to see it in person on Wednesday before the pour on thursday morning to give a Yes or No because maybe there is an issue I can't see from here - even if it's not, maybe we can add some steel and make it OK."

I tell the GC and he flips! "You're gonna pay for this job delay" I walk away and cancel my inspection at 1:10, then up-date my employer about it - who has been caught in the middle just as much as I have been. He is already tweeked from the phone calls already, is upset that I pulled the plug on the inspection and begining to re-route out of this questionable area...

So at this point I have 3 days to re-do 2 days work, (which will probably only take 1.5 with the help I got from the Boss today) or risk of having the Engineer say 'no' on wednesday which would delay the pour until at least next friday... A delay of 1 day, on top of the 4 that the Engineer already caused - with a GC that will probably try to get you for all 5.

So outside of the Engineering aspect...

1. Do you think I made the right call in deciding to re-route it?

 

[charlie tuna]

as mike holt would say "you may win this fight but still loose the war"!! if your in the slab now, you've got aways to go before completing this job. the gc will always hold the cards until you get the c.o.. if there is any reasonable reason to re-route the raceway ---do it ---NOW--- and get it off your back in this time restriction situation. this way you can make nice-nice with both the concrete contractor and the gc.... stay away from delays -- remember the delay costs every trade---including your boss!

 

[George Stolz]

I'm having a hard time understanding the conflict - what was in the original path that led it to being "stupid" an hour after it was questioned?

I once trenched through the future corner of a building, when it was not painfully obvious (to me) that the building was going to be there. What was this case?

 

[bphgravity]

When you say, "in the footing", do you mean perpendicular through the footing or parallel with the footing?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Yes, I do.

1. There would be much, much, much more he## to pay if the engineer told you in 4 days it was not okay.

2. I would bet the farm that the engineer is going to say it is not good, as the pipe is not structural and takes too much physical space in the poor thus reducing the strength of the footing.

I am thinking he means parallel within the footing.

 

[Oakey]

Is there a drawing of the run on the print to back you up? Sounds like it's cover your #$% time. Yes you did the right thing IMO

 

[e57]

A rolling off-set out of a footing and into a grade beam - then diagonal/parralel to the footing deep in the grade beam - the question is its proximity to a 3 story brick chimney... (Which is right mext to the main panel.) A big sue you issue.

And to be clear both the footing and the grade beam will be poured together, and are MASSIVE!
2'x2' grade beam, and a 48"wX48"hX18" footing - I rolled out of the corner of the footing into the grade beam a short distance, within the steel and surrounded with no less than 7"+ coverage all around.

Like I said, neither the Building Dept. or the Engineer could see a reason why I couldn't for a conduit that small in relation to a footing that large - it's just that the engineer did not see it first hand - yet.... And I would not have time to correct when / after he would.

So now in process of going more perpendicular 6" away from the same area... Everyone happy - sort of... Except me... So me CYA'ing mine, I am mearly saving the Engineer from CYA'ing his - although he can not put a finger on why I couldn't do what I did - over the phone or through pictures...

 

[e57]

I'm having a hard time understanding the conflict - what was in the original path that led it to being "stupid" an hour after it was questioned?

The conflict is/was created by me standing waist deep in steel, inside a footing I can almost crawl around in - then a "gray haired" concrete contractor who often stops to talk and often while I was working on this - scratched his head, and asked a question to another engineer who doesn't know that job this morning. Who told me, and we both called the ACTUAL engineer who decides he wasn't coming today. Although, it is really way over engineered he wanted to check...

And as the (younger) GC trusts the (any) opinion of this rather nice older guy - decided to question it too. After seeing me there doing it for 2 days. An hour later it became "what were you thinking".

And now I get the feeling that the (younger) RESPONCABLE stamp is second guessing himself - although he too (originally) had doubts of any issue with what I did... We're talkin huge - beefy lot o' steel footing, that my conduit would have been a very small portion of.

Whats worse is I have been on the GC about the existing service. Originally hack work, and now in a state of decay for several months now. Obviously not worth keeping from outside appearances... He thinks we're trying to ride him for change orders - "cause thats what electricains do" A few weeks ago I open the main to put the UFER in, and a service term can and find that both neutrals are rotten, and the cans are rusting much more than I thought originally. At which point I tell by boss that we shouldn't warranty anything. Months ago I could have been in a trench below all of this mess... Had anyone allowed me to look and not been afraid that I was looking to up-charge them...

 

[khixxx]

lesson lived lesson learned. Not sure what those lessons are.

Like Mike H. said on his video. The only way it's a problem is when no one else has dealt with a situation.

I am sure this is not the first and last time people drag their feet and others get in a huff, and your work will be torn out and redone. Good Luck.

If anyone else gets to you, challenge the trouble makers to 9 rounds of bare knuckle boxing.

 

[growler]

And as the (younger) GC trusts the (any) opinion of this rather nice older guy - decided to question it too. After seeing me there doing it for 2 days. An hour later it became "what were you thinking".

I haven't done a job like this in a few years but when I did I always tried to put the monkey on some one else. I make sure that the GC knows that I'm not a structural engineer ( I'm definitely not getting paid as one ) and before I run conduit in a situation like this I want the route OK'ed by a structural engineer. That way if there is any controversy over the conduit run then it can be changed the very minute I recieve a change order.

As Dirty Harry ( Clint Eastwood ) said in the movie " a man's got to know his limitations".

Never do anything that you are not paid for. We as electricians work as installers not engineers. Make the engineers do their job and take the responsibility.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

e57 - I'm really trying to get a picture in my mind as to how you were running the conduit that became a question. Can you draw a pic? I haven't done much conduit work around a footing - most of mine has been in the deck - and any feeds to the commercial buildings I've done have been foundation penetrations above the footing.

I just want to walk away from this post making sure what issues people were concerned with. One thing that might help me is understanding what a "grade beam" is.

Thanks