rough-in rejected

Status
Not open for further replies.

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
I visit forum often but haven't posted much at all. Today's failed rough-in inspection has prompted me to post tonight. I'm having a master bdrm addition built on to my existing home and had the rough-in wiring inspected today. Came home to a rejected sticker with the comment from inspector stating "14 wire not to be used in a 20amp circuit." I used 12/2 for my light and receptacle circuits with 14/3 for 3 way travelers and switch leg to fan light combo in bathroom. Being a former EC, I had quite a bit of nail on boxes and 12/2 wire laying around I could use so I did. I plan on using 15amp arc fault breakers for my brdrm circuits. Code book is at office but I'm pretty sure 15amp circuits in bdrm's are legal. Is the inspector assuming I will be using 20amp breakers based on the 12/2 I used? Can one not use 12/2 on 15amp circuit? Any thoughts?
 

hey_poolboy

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

Even if that did happen which would be a violation in this case, there would be no hazard as #14 is rated for 20 amps. :cool:
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Engineering
I visit forum often but haven't posted much at all. Today's failed rough-in inspection has prompted me to post tonight. I'm having a master bdrm addition built on to my existing home and had the rough-in wiring inspected today. Came home to a rejected sticker with the comment from inspector stating "14 wire not to be used in a 20amp circuit." I used 12/2 for my light and receptacle circuits with 14/3 for 3 way travelers and switch leg to fan light combo in bathroom. Being a former EC, I had quite a bit of nail on boxes and 12/2 wire laying around I could use so I did. I plan on using 15amp arc fault breakers for my brdrm circuits. Code book is at office but I'm pretty sure 15amp circuits in bdrm's are legal. Is the inspector assuming I will be using 20amp breakers based on the 12/2 I used? Can one not use 12/2 on 15amp circuit? Any thoughts?

You need to communicate what you told us to the inspector.
14 mixed in with 12, That's a rejection every time. The inspector can only assume you are going to put the lights and receptacles on a 20 amp breaker.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

And when I stopped laughing I would ask you for code to back that failure up. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

Look at it this way, no electrical professional should be raising the overcurrent protection on a circuit without knowing about the circuit.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

anything could happen later. Someone could put a 30amp breaker on it if they wanted to.
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

What if they were up-sizing the wire for Voltage Drop? How would you handle that?

I guess one could put a tag or note as to the reason for the size choice.
 

e57

Senior Member
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.
So if you come by one of my jobs and see all #10's you would expect it would all be 30's???? :roll:
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
You can't fail that job until you connect it to the wrong breaker. However, your setup leaves you open to be questioned as to why you are running 12/2 from the panel. The assumption is that you intend on having a 20A circuit.

It is all speculation until you explain yourself.

1) You could be planning on a 20A circuit and did not have 12/3 so you used 14/3 at which point this is a violation.

2) You could be planning on using a 15A circuit and used the wire that you had left for the feed which in this case was 12/2. Not a problem.

As an inspector. I would have passed the installation but left a note on the paperwork reminding you that this can only be a 15A circuit for final. If you were present, I would have simply asked you.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Is the inspector assuming I will be using 20amp breakers based on the 12/2 I used? Any thoughts?


Probably. Now it's time to give the inspector a call and tell him what you intend to do. It's really not a big deal.

I find there is often confusion if you are not there for the inspection but a phone call normally clears things up.

There are areas of Tennessee where they don't allow any #14 so that may be a problem. Got caught on that one once myself.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Just put a label on the wire at the panel that says 15A circuit. Not required, but I do when I have oversized conductors. Should make the inspector happy.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

You need to communicate what you told us to the inspector.
14 mixed in with 12, That's a rejection every time. The inspector can only assume you are going to put the lights and receptacles on a 20 amp breaker.


So you guys would accept a red sticker even if it wasn't really an NEC violation?

If the inspector saw both #14 and #12 cable then he should assume that it will be on a 15 amp circuit not a 20.
 

SEO

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Just put a label on the wire at the panel that says 15A circuit. Not required, but I do when I have oversized conductors. Should make the inspector happy.

I agree with the label on the wire otherwise when making a final inspection the inspector may see a 20A breaker on the circuit with a 14 in the middle and approve the installation. The same could hold true for the electrician he may install a circuit breaker per wire size not remembering about the 14 or it may be a different electrician and he wouldn't know either.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I'd have failed it as well. Not that I am an inspector. :)

Look at it this way. In the panel you'll see a #12 wire and someone in the future may see that and assume they could protect it at 20 amps, not knowing that there is a bunch of #14 on the same circuit.

I am flabbergasted and have no sensible response to this.

But I will add in this area it is typical to utilize #8 and and/or #6 AWG AL. for parking lot lighting, you fail a complete project because an electrician and/or engineer took voltage drop into consideration.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Wearing that hat every day, I see the EI had three choices.
1. Contact you to ask about the "game plan" (not sure how easy that would be)
2. Accept the job with the "mix" and assume you are planning on a 15 amp circuit.
3. Fail the job at R.I. so corrections could be made, if any, before covering.

I might add, seeing that you are from TN, that if it's State regulations in play, TN has a limit on the number of outlets on arc-fault circuits and if he did a box count he could have found that the number would only work on a 20 amp circuit.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Engineering
So you guys would accept a red sticker even if it wasn't really an NEC violation?

If the inspector saw both #14 and #12 cable then he should assume that it will be on a 15 amp circuit not a 20.

No, I would not accept a red sticker. I would call the inspector and explain what my plans were.
Why should he assume it will be on a 15 amp breaker? All that 12/2 and the only 14 was a 14/3 between 3 ways and a 14/2 switch leg to a bath fan/light combo. Voltage drop? Nah....
 
Last edited:

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
I might add, seeing that you are from TN, that if it's State regulations in play, TN has a limit on the number of outlets on arc-fault circuits and if he did a box count he could have found that the number would only work on a 20 amp circuit.

I have 16 outlets and did split them between 2 circuits, so I should be good as far as that goes. He only inspects on Tuesdays and Thursdays in our area, so I'll give him a call Thurs. morn to tell him my intentions and we'll see what he says.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top