rough-in rejected

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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
OK , might be wrong here but you as an inspector had reason to be concerned. Now is question of what to do. Did he leave his cell number at panel ? I sure do if i can't be there. With no number i would be looking to see who pulled permit and likely leave the only LEGAL note you can. Advise that from what you installed the max breaker on trim neads be a 15. Legaly you can not fail the job just yet and if you fail it you just tied up the job so i will call you a few unkind names. Now from the other side of coin just what did you exspect him to do ? Had you left a note he would been required to pass it. Really in this age of cell phones why did you put the inspector in such a spot. Now if i had left a number and he did not call then i will be on his a-- and call his boss. Job is legal but without note you asked for it.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Did he leave his cell number at panel ? I sure do if i can't be there. With no number i would be looking to see who pulled permit and likely leave the only LEGAL note you can.

One reason I'm glad that my cell phone number is the one that gets put on the permit. If there is a question, there is no reason why he can't call me.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
Had you left a note he would been required to pass it. Really in this age of cell phones why did you put the inspector in such a spot. Now if i had left a number and he did not call then i will be on his a-- and call his boss. Job is legal but without note you asked for it.

Really didn't think about leaving a note at the time. Didn't think I would get failed on the RI (maybe final inspection) and I really didn't think I put inspector in such a spot. Well, I guess that's what I get for thinking.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If I used oversized home runs, I'd splice a section of the "right" size of wire on where the cable enters the panel, just to be sure that, no matter who connects or replaces a breaker in the future, they're more likely to use the correct rating.

When estimating and/or performing service changes, and without an indication to the contrary, I base my breaker count on the size of the wires. I often find 14's being supplied via a single 20a or 30a fuse in older, overstuffed fuse panels.

I certainly wouldn't base the new breaker rating on the existing fuse size, whether larger or smaller than it should be. The one main exception is the HVAC, which I base on the nameplate of the unit, and not the previous protection size.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If I used oversized home runs, I'd splice a section of the "right" size of wire on where the cable enters the panel, just to be sure that, no matter who connects or replaces a breaker in the future, they're more likely to use the correct rating.

I would weld the panel closed and install an alarm with central station monitoring.

Can't be to lax about protecting idiots from themselves.:roll:

I say again ...

no electrical professional should be raising the overcurrent protection on a circuit without knowing about the circuit.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
No, I would not accept a red sticker. I would call the inspector and explain what my plans were.
Why should he assume it will be on a 15 amp breaker? All that 12/2 and the only 14 was a 14/3 between 3 ways and a 14/2 switch leg to a bath fan/light combo. Voltage drop? Nah....


I can see your point about the #14 only on the lighting but IMO the inspector shouldn't be assuming anything when he fails the job on the RI. He could just as easily assume that the electrician knows what he's doing and that the circuit will be on a 15 OCPD at the final.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
cds9044, curious, was the permit issued with a contractors license number or as "homeowner" ?
I ask because at one time 14 was allowed in TN as a switchleg and a great number or "homeowners" still make that mistake. He might well have been influenced by the way the permit was issued.
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I am also wondering if the permit was taken out as the homeowner or as an electrician. Particularly if the permit was taken out as a homeowner would this send up red flags. I would fail it leaving a note with a phone number and ask if they planned to protect it at 15 amps. Now would be the time to address it before the walls are closed up.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Any electrician that would size the breaker based on size of wire alone would not know why you spliced on a #14.
As an inspector i would make a note and perhaps take a few pictures. Then leave a tag on the panel telling him/her that they need to call you before you will sign them off. That way he has not red tagged your job and just holding off on passing you. He has no way of knowing who wired this and even if thru a EC it might been done by less than ideal man.
You brought this onto yourself. The nm has been colored for many years just so this is easily seen as a change in size. As an inspector if i seen this i would see this job as holding up a red flag and spend time checking everything. Failing it is wrong but simply not passing it is fine.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Makes sense Jim. If the inspector was going "by the book", there is no violation until it lands on a 20 amp breaker. I sure like the note idea better than a red tag at rough. Nothing says he has to final it before his question is answered.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but I need to ask (because nobody else did), how this works for the EGC. If you use #12 for a 15 amp circuit, then you need a #12 EGC. No problem; the 12/2 would come with its own #12 EGC. But what happens when you connect the #14 for the bathroom fan? Do you still need a #12 EGC? Can we say with certainty that when you switch to the smaller wire, you no longer need the biggie-sized EGC? Is this adequately covered by the wording of 250.122(B): "Where ungrounded conductors are increased. . . "?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Charlie, how about a few sentences up in 250.122, "in no case shall they (EGC) be required to be larger than the circuit conductor".. would that no cover the problem ?
 

mivey

Senior Member
I would think the #14 to the fan would be covered by the ground that goes with the cable.

Keep the same point-to-point. Don't mix between points.

add: or what Gus said
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Even that line does not seem to recognize that a circuit "supplying the equipment" might comprise more than one size of conductor.
 
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