rough-in rejected

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mivey

Senior Member
If this circuit ends up fused at 15 amps then there is no problem with ground or other conductors.
Electrically speaking, I don't see it as a problem either. I think charlie is after what the code actually says, whether or not it makes sense.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
If this circuit ends up fused at 15 amps then there is no problem with ground or other conductors.
If it is fused at 15 amps and uses #12 ungrounded conductors, there might be a problem with #14 EGC. Perhaps I should move all comments related to this side-issue to their own thread. Or maybe we can all just let it go, and return to the original discussion.
 

mivey

Senior Member
If it is fused at 15 amps and uses #12 ungrounded conductors, there might be a problem with #14 EGC. Perhaps I should move all comments related to this side-issue to their own thread. Or maybe we can all just let it go, and return to the original discussion.
I'd rather see you move it than let it go. It is interesting.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
cds9044, curious, was the permit issued with a contractors license number or as "homeowner" ?
I ask because at one time 14 was allowed in TN as a switchleg and a great number or "homeowners" still make that mistake. He might well have been influenced by the way the permit was issued.


Good point. I did take this out as a homeowner and not on my contractor's license. I still plan on calling in the morning and plead my case. We'll see what happens.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Good point. I did take this out as a homeowner and not on my contractor's license. I still plan on calling in the morning and plead my case. We'll see what happens.

Really is no choice, it is legal and unless you have local ammendments he must pass it. In fairness the man did what most would do under the conditions. As soon as you tell him who you are and what your doing he should simply say ok and pass it. If not then invite him here. We can always use inspectors on the forum.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Altough, as stated, I should not matter but using a "homeowners" permit didn't help your case.
Not that it NEVER happens, but in all the homeowner jobs I've seen, none of them ever compensated for voltage drop on inside house wiring.
MANY of them mixed #14 wire on a 20 amp circuit..partly becuase at one time they were allowed to do so (under State policy) and more often becase "thats the wire they had left" :)
Had I seen that under a homeowners permit, unless I had an easy contact, I would have rejected it also.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Can we say with certainty that when you switch to the smaller wire, you no longer need the biggie-sized EGC? Is this adequately covered by the wording of 250.122(B): "Where ungrounded conductors are increased. . . "?
I say we can, and it is.

When someone runs, for example, #12 to a box, goes to #6 for a long run, and goes back to #12 at the load end, must the EGC be #6 from panel to load?

Nay, I say! Nay!

Besides, if this was cable, where would you find #14 NM with a #12 EGC?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I say we can, and it is.

When someone runs, for example, #12 to a box, goes to #6 for a long run, and goes back to #12 at the load end, must the EGC be #6 from panel to load?

Nay, I say! Nay!

I will just say no, I don't 'nay'. (I agree with Larry:))

Besides, if this was cable, where would you find #14 NM with a #12 EGC?

The fact that no one makes a cable does not prove anything either way.:)

If I want to run 6/3 UF to a far away post light with a GFCI receptacle on it (Black constant, Red Switched) I have an issue with the EGC.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
Talked to inspector this morning. He said it didn't matter if I was going to use 15 amp breaker or not and that you can't mix #14 and #12 in a circuit......no code reference cited.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
He said it didn't matter if I was going to use 15 amp breaker or not and that you can't mix #14 and #12 in a circuit.
He is wrong. You can do that.
...no code reference cited.
The only applicable code requirement is 240.4. You have to protect all conductors at their ampacity.

  • If you connect a #14 to a 15 amp breaker, you have protected it at its ampacity.
  • If you connect a #12 to a 15 amp breaker, you have protected it at its ampacity.
  • If you connect a #14 and a #12 to the same 15 amp breaker, you have protected both at their respective ampacities.
Q.E.D.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Good point. I did take this out as a homeowner and not on my contractor's license. I still plan on calling in the morning and plead my case. We'll see what happens.

Talked to inspector this morning. He said it didn't matter if I was going to use 15 amp breaker or not and that you can't mix #14 and #12 in a circuit......no code reference cited.

Now comes the fun part. You know you are right and can probably eventually get it approved but is it worth the trouble?

What's really funny about this is that some small towns will actually allow #14 used as a switch leg on a 20 Amp circuit. Not legal but allowed.

Being in power does have certain advantages.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
Now comes the fun part. You know you are right and can probably eventually get it approved but is it worth the trouble?

You're exactly right. Do I want to go through the trouble and get it passed only to have him give me a hard time on the final? Of course, if I install everything correctly on the final he shouldn't find anything to fail me on.......or maybe he will?
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
You're exactly right. Do I want to go through the trouble and get it passed only to have him give me a hard time on the final? Of course, if I install everything correctly on the final he shouldn't find anything to fail me on.......or maybe he will?

Before anyone starts jumping on me, I'm not agreeing with the inspector or the call.

But as to your final question, I always tell people that it's a big old book and I'm sure that I could always find something in there that you missed.:)

But on the same hand there's something that's not in there that he's calling.

The one lesson that is repeated often on this forum, is that you cannot inspect what might happen. I have actually taken that one to heart, I don't have to like it, I just have to approve it.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Engineering
You're exactly right. Do I want to go through the trouble and get it passed only to have him give me a hard time on the final? Of course, if I install everything correctly on the final he shouldn't find anything to fail me on.......or maybe he will?

He is wrong. and should have to give you a reference.
But, as you said is it worth the trouble?
If you are a EC trying to make a living,Yes!
If this is a one time thing for you and you will most likely not have to deal with him again except at final, I'd fix it and grumble the whole time.
 
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