While doing a walk thriugh on a new building that we are in the proccess of building I noticed the contractor had run 2 panels side by side with 2 two inch chace nipples between them. One at the top and one at the bottom of the enclosures. In the nipple at the top were the 3 phase conductors and the equipment grounding conductor. In the bottom chase nipple was the neutral conductor. I have never seen this before and have looked in the code and my first say on this is code violation. Can you help me out? Or is this acceptable?
routing of the neutral coductor??????
- Thread starter caj1962
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Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Look at 300.20 too (and the associated exceptions).
[ October 16, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
Look at 300.20 too (and the associated exceptions).
[ October 16, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
brian john
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- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
If I knew how to post pics to this site I could post at least 100 pics of this practice taken over a few years.
If I knew how to post pics to this site I could post at least 100 pics of this practice taken over a few years.
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Caj, I agree with Brian (although I can't say hundreds) that this is done more than you would think. As far as having the thread removed, you found your answer and have brought this incorrect wiring method to the surface for many that may not know it's a problem.
To remove a thread that is informative would be wrong, although I know it has been done recently.
Roger
Caj, I agree with Brian (although I can't say hundreds) that this is done more than you would think. As far as having the thread removed, you found your answer and have brought this incorrect wiring method to the surface for many that may not know it's a problem.
To remove a thread that is informative would be wrong, although I know it has been done recently.
Roger
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Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
I'm wondering if a chase nipple is considered a raceway?
[ October 16, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
I'm wondering if a chase nipple is considered a raceway?
../Wayne C.
[ October 16, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
I would call the chase nipple a raceway (look at article 100) but lets say you decide not to consider it a raceway.
Then the requirements of 300.20(B) would make you cut slots right through the sides of it to the spot where the other conductors of that circuit pass through the enclosure.
This comes up when you run single conductor MI cable, where we enter the enclosure we cut out a rectangle of the steel enclosure and cover that hole with a brass piece that the 3 or 4 MI connectors thread into.
[ October 17, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I would call the chase nipple a raceway (look at article 100) but lets say you decide not to consider it a raceway.
Then the requirements of 300.20(B) would make you cut slots right through the sides of it to the spot where the other conductors of that circuit pass through the enclosure.
This comes up when you run single conductor MI cable, where we enter the enclosure we cut out a rectangle of the steel enclosure and cover that hole with a brass piece that the 3 or 4 MI connectors thread into.
[ October 17, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
pierre
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- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Bob
As I have never had the experience of that type of installation, would you mind elaborating on that a little more?
Thanks
Pierre
Bob
As I have never had the experience of that type of installation, would you mind elaborating on that a little more?
Thanks
Pierre
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Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
I was thinking about the raceway angle more and I'm thinking if it's a raceway it's only about ?1/8" long (the thickness of the two panel sides).
The code talks about using slots.
The code also says that the conductors need to be in the same raceway or enclosure. The only time they are not in the same enclosure is that ?1/8". Is that enough? I don't know. Do you have a picture of the slot treatment?
I was thinking about the raceway angle more and I'm thinking if it's a raceway it's only about ?1/8" long (the thickness of the two panel sides).
The code talks about using slots.
The code also says that the conductors need to be in the same raceway or enclosure. The only time they are not in the same enclosure is that ?1/8". Is that enough? I don't know. Do you have a picture of the slot treatment?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
IMO it is clearly a raceway and it is close to
1" long.
Being a raceway 300.20(A) would apply and all conductors of that circuit will have to pass through that same chase nipple.
Wayne I was really only kidding about the chase nipple not being a raceway.
IMO it is clearly a raceway and it is close to
1" long.
No where does it say a raceway has to be a certain length.
Being a raceway 300.20(A) would apply and all conductors of that circuit will have to pass through that same chase nipple.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
I have only terminated MI cable a couple of times, the company I work for does it fairly regularly.
Type MI cable for those that have not seen it looks like soft drawn copper water pipe on the outside, there is no rubber or plastic insulation on the outside.(At least the kinds I have seen)
The outer cover is copper, inside that is a copper conductor insulated from the outer sheath by a white material that resembles gypsum. I do not really know what it is.
In smaller sizes it is multi conductor cable, in the larger sizes it is single conductor.
The single conductor MI cable is what we run so for a 3 phase 4 wire feeder you will have 4 of these conductors, the outside sheath being the grounding conductor.
Once you get to a panel we will as I said cut out a rectangle about 4" x 8" or 10" from the panel enclosure and bolt on a brass plate that covers this hole and is about 3/4" thick.
This brass plate has holes threaded in it that receive the MI connectors that look much like brass compression plumbing fittings.
The use of this brass piece being non-ferris keeps us from having heating problems from passing the single conductors through the steel panel tub.
If you have the 2002 Handbook they go into more detail right after 332.31, also they have a picture of the MI fittings.
332.31 adresses running the nuetral with the phase conductors.
[ October 17, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I am guessing you mean the MI part of my post as I was only kidding about cutting a slot in a chase nipple.
I have only terminated MI cable a couple of times, the company I work for does it fairly regularly.
Type MI cable for those that have not seen it looks like soft drawn copper water pipe on the outside, there is no rubber or plastic insulation on the outside.(At least the kinds I have seen)
The outer cover is copper, inside that is a copper conductor insulated from the outer sheath by a white material that resembles gypsum. I do not really know what it is.
In smaller sizes it is multi conductor cable, in the larger sizes it is single conductor.
The single conductor MI cable is what we run so for a 3 phase 4 wire feeder you will have 4 of these conductors, the outside sheath being the grounding conductor.
Once you get to a panel we will as I said cut out a rectangle about 4" x 8" or 10" from the panel enclosure and bolt on a brass plate that covers this hole and is about 3/4" thick.
This brass plate has holes threaded in it that receive the MI connectors that look much like brass compression plumbing fittings.
The use of this brass piece being non-ferris keeps us from having heating problems from passing the single conductors through the steel panel tub.
If you have the 2002 Handbook they go into more detail right after 332.31, also they have a picture of the MI fittings.
332.31 adresses running the nuetral with the phase conductors.
[ October 17, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Nope, the subject and discussion is way too interesting. Thanks for the mistake.
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Charlie, this is a sincere question not trying to put you or anyone on a spot.
A couple of weeks ago there was a thread about surge suppression that seems to have been removed. The answers given by Earlydean and Dereck were informative and valuable to others.
There was one party that couldn't understand the question, but I wouldn't think that would be a reason to deprive others of the information.
Why would that one be removed?
Roger
Charlie, this is a sincere question not trying to put you or anyone on a spot.
A couple of weeks ago there was a thread about surge suppression that seems to have been removed. The answers given by Earlydean and Dereck were informative and valuable to others.
There was one party that couldn't understand the question, but I wouldn't think that would be a reason to deprive others of the information.
Why would that one be removed?
Roger
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Bob
Thanks for the detailed answer I have not worked with MI, so this is good to know.
Pierre
Bob
Thanks for the detailed answer
I have not worked with MI, so this is good to know.Pierre
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Roger, in a message to the moderators there was discussion of a thread that was deleted by mistake. A function has been set up so that if that happens again, the thread can be retrieved. This may have referred to the thread you mentioned.
Karl
Roger, in a message to the moderators there was discussion of a thread that was deleted by mistake. A function has been set up so that if that happens again, the thread can be retrieved. This may have referred to the thread you mentioned.
Karl
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Re: routing of the neutral coductor??????
Roger,
Can you please enable PM? I need to send you a PM.
Thanks,
../Wayne C.
Roger,
Can you please enable PM? I need to send you a PM.
Thanks,
../Wayne C.
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