Rude Inspector (Needs Reported?)

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Generatorman

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Let me first say hello to everyone. I work in standby and prime power generation so my NEC code knowledge is below average, but I know enough to NOT to be dangerous.
Recently I purchased a 1950's home and of course #1 thing was to upgrade the existing 60A to a 200A service. I also added a 45Kw standby generator.
Upon inspection by an independent inspector (PA stinks!), he told me I have "Neutral Issues" I need to square away. He wouldn't tell me any more. So I consulted my NEC book and I can not for the life of me figure out where I screwed up. Here's what I got:
200A service from Meter base to a 200A disconnect where the Neutral and Ground are bonded (Ground comes from the rod beside the foundation), Then on to a 260A automatic transfer switch (4 pole neutral switching contactor), Then to my 200A panel for the home (which is neutral isolated). What kind of "Neutral Issue" do I have? I can't for the life of me figure out what the heck he meant.
The generator is NOT neutral isolated because the ATS switches the neutral from the main disconnect....This is the only "Grey Area" I can figure on..
 
Since your ATS switches the neutral, means your generator is configured as a Seperately Derived System. Read 250.30 and it should fill you in. I would bet when your genset is online, you neutral circuit is no longer bonded to ground.

Basically you will have to extend the Ground Electrode to the genset, and make a N-G bond in the Genset. Otherwise when the genset is online the way it is now, there would be no way to clear a fault because the path is open.

To put it in another way, your ATS is behind the meter and the N-G bond is at the service ahead of the ATS. Since your ATS switched the neutral, you loose the N-G bond.

As for the inspector being rude he does not have to point out his objection, but he should reference the code violation, which I would guess is 250.30
 
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It's not uncommon for an inspector to fail an install and not give a code reference. There are posts like that here all the time. Dereck's post may just be describing the problem. However, I fail to see how the inspector was rude by what you have posted. (And I have had my share of inspector disputes).
 
I don't see rude but I see a lack of proper follow-up by not giving you a code reference or explaining exactly what you did wrong. They are not required to tell you how to fix it but at least explain what you did wrong and give a reference.

My guess is that:
1) He is an older, experienced and burnt out electrical inspector.
2) He has no idea what he is looking at and could not give you a reference, even with a follow up phone call if he had to go look it up.

Now to my soap box about PA using the ICC because you are a prime example.

Third party agencies in PA want thier inspectors to be multi-disciplined. This means that often they guys and girls have zero experience in a field yet are forced to take and pass tests. The testing procedure at the residential level is easier, hence the problem.

You are a perfect example.

The ICC Residential Electrical Inspector test is an open book test right out of the IRC only. The IRC covers the electrical portion in just 75 pages. The test does not require you to be able to use or understand the NEC at all.

Many things are not even covered in the IRC such as a Standby Generator, therefore it is possible that you will get an inspector who has zero electrical experience, who never even saw an installed generator and was not required to know anything at all about the NEC for testing purposes. The NEC is a reference standard and you are suppose to be familiar with it but you don't have to bring the NEC to the testing center because not 1 single question is out of the NEC.

This is complete nonsense and has been my gripe from day 1.

My suggestion is to call the inspector, ask him what you did wrong and to please cite a code reference so that you can comply with his inspection report and the NEC.

OK, off soapbox.
 
ivsenroute said:
I don't see rude but I see a lack of proper follow-up by not giving you a code reference or explaining exactly what you did wrong. They are not required to tell you how to fix it but at least explain what you did wrong and give a reference.

My guess is that:
1) He is an older, experienced and burnt out electrical inspector.
2) He has no idea what he is looking at and could not give you a reference, even with a follow up phone call if he had to go look it up.

Now to my soap box about PA using the ICC because you are a prime example.

Third party agencies in PA want thier inspectors to be multi-disciplined. This means that often they guys and girls have zero experience in a field yet are forced to take and pass tests. The testing procedure at the residential level is easier, hence the problem.

You are a perfect example.

The ICC Residential Electrical Inspector test is an open book test right out of the IRC only. The IRC covers the electrical portion in just 75 pages. The test does not require you to be able to use or understand the NEC at all.

Many things are not even covered in the IRC such as a Standby Generator, therefore it is possible that you will get an inspector who has zero electrical experience, who never even saw an installed generator and was not required to know anything at all about the NEC for testing purposes. The NEC is a reference standard and you are suppose to be familiar with it but you don't have to bring the NEC to the testing center because not 1 single question is out of the NEC.

This is complete nonsense and has been my gripe from day 1.

My suggestion is to call the inspector, ask him what you did wrong and to please cite a code reference so that you can comply with his inspection report and the NEC.

OK, off soapbox.
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These Pa testing procedures that you talk about, is this a recent change?
I took the Pa test about 4 years ago and was told to bring the NEC. If I remember correctly the test was 65 questions, 2 1/2 hours. All of the 3rd Party agencies that I applied to required 5 years minimum field experience.
 
Never hesitate to open the lines of communication with your inspectors and other forms of AHJ. If you don't like the serve you are getting, make some calls and get some answers.
 
Don't challange the inspector, politly ask for a code reference as to what the violations are that he cited. Welcome to the forum.
 
Thanks for the replies.

dereckbc: I apologize, I should have been more clear - I do have the Neutral and the ground (from the same rod) bonded at the generator in the generator junction box (where all the leads converge). I will re-read 250.30 to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Minuteman: As for this inspector, I really didn't get into his actions.I figured I would stick to the install in my post instead of ranting about him. But here (in short) are a only three examples (of the many) I dealt with that I seen to be "out of line" - His remarks where simply off topic..such as "Why do you need such a big generator - that's ridiculous", the way I see it, that's none of his business...and he should have stuck to the install not my choice in generator size.
Comment 2 - "Why all the fancy gadgets?" - Referring to my surge suppression system and ATS / Generator monitoring devices, again, this is none of his business and he should stick to the task at hand.
Comment 3 - "Did your company install this or did you do it on the side?" - I see this as irrelevant, I could answer yes to either one of those...what does it have to do with the inspection??
He just seemed to have a chip on his shoulder for some reason...even the utility guy made a comment about how ignorant he was being.

ivsenroute: "My guess is that: 1) He is an older, experienced and burnt out electrical inspector." - You hit the nail on the head right there....
 
Generatorman said:
Thanks for the replies.

dereckbc: I apologize, I should have been more clear - I do have the Neutral and the ground (from the same rod) bonded at the generator in the generator junction box (where all the leads converge). I will re-read 250.30 to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Minuteman: As for this inspector, I really didn't get into his actions.I figured I would stick to the install in my post instead of ranting about him. But here (in short) are a only three examples (of the many) I dealt with that I seen to be "out of line" - His remarks where simply off topic..such as "Why do you need such a big generator - that's ridiculous", the way I see it, that's none of his business...and he should have stuck to the install not my choice in generator size.
Comment 2 - "Why all the fancy gadgets?" - Referring to my surge suppression system and ATS / Generator monitoring devices, again, this is none of his business and he should stick to the task at hand.
Comment 3 - "Did your company install this or did you do it on the side?" - I see this as irrelevant, I could answer yes to either one of those...what does it have to do with the inspection??
He just seemed to have a chip on his shoulder for some reason...even the utility guy made a comment about how ignorant he was being.

ivsenroute: "My guess is that: 1) He is an older, experienced and burnt out electrical inspector." - You hit the nail on the head right there....
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You never know what bee was in his bonnet. I would call up the inspection dept. and ask for the senior inspector and explain what happened and ask for a reinspect.
 
acrwc10 said:
I would call up the inspection dept. and ask for the senior inspector and explain what happened and ask for a reinspect.
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But not before talking with the inspector himself. Going over the inspector the first time out is a bad move and perhaps a little disrespectfull. Allow him to make it right first. If he is unwilling or unable, then go up the chain.
 
bphgravity said:
But not before talking with the inspector himself. Going over the inspector the first time out is a bad move and perhaps a little disrespectfull. Allow him to make it right first. If he is unwilling or unable, then go up the chain.
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Agreed, I live in a city that if the inspector has an issue with your work they will take the time to go to the code book with you and review the section in question. This achieves two things 1st, You know exactly what they are talking about. 2nd, If they are incorrect in there call ( say they miss an exception or the like) you don't waist the time of waiting for a reinspect, and all the other crap that fallows along with it.
 
bphgravity said:
But not before talking with the inspector himself. Going over the inspector the first time out is a bad move and perhaps a little disrespectfull. Allow him to make it right first. If he is unwilling or unable, then go up the chain.
Click to expand...

I agree. None of us ever know how things are going in someone else's shoes. Maybe he was having a bad day or had a lot on his mind or something. It happens to all of us at some time or another. Talk with him again first, and if that doesn't work then do what you have to do.
 
Generatorman said:
Thanks for the replies.

dereckbc: I apologize, I should have been more clear - I do have the Neutral and the ground (from the same rod) bonded at the generator in the generator junction box (where all the leads converge).
Click to expand...

Is this ground rod bonded to the buildings GE system? Or is it isolated at the generator?
 
Generatorman said:
dereckbc: I apologize, I should have been more clear - I do have the Neutral and the ground (from the same rod) bonded at the generator in the generator junction box (where all the leads converge). I will re-read 250.30 to make sure I didn't miss anything. QUOTE]

If the same ground rod is used for the Utility (neutral) and the Generator (neutral), even

though the ATS opens the neutral in the switch is it not still solidly connected thru the

GEC's ? Also, would it be a SDS in this case.
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Sometimes inspectors know what the rule is but can't come up with a code reference off the top of thier heads, Same happens to me.
 
Curious where you're at in PA? I could use a generator man from time to time. The manufacturers are holding onto the software and passwords so tight now, you can't do squat.
 
Rude Inspector (Needs Reported?)

Rude Inspector (Needs Reported?)

bphgravity said:
But not before talking with the inspector himself. Going over the inspector the first time out is a bad move and perhaps a little disrespectfull. Allow him to make it right first. If he is unwilling or unable, then go up the chain.
Click to expand...

Always go to the horses mouth FIRST.
I once had a rude inspector. I caught him coming out of the store and called him over to my truck.
I looked at him and said: (When have I S--- in your corn flakes?)
He leaned back and spit and grin-ed big and said: (Never).
After that he has always respected me and treated me fairly.
He is the toughest one here and turns down the most jobs and most hate him.
He has only turned me down a couple of times in the last four years but he is always in the right usually it was something I had overlooked. He has made me a better electrician, and now I inspect my jobs before he gets there.
Some of us see a turn down as rude but it's all in the way its done. All the inspectors here will take your calls and explain what you did wrong. I never get a code reference but they will tell you if you ask. Sometime they agree you did nothing wrong and take it back but again its something you knew but overlooked.
All in all we have some of the best inspectors here in the City and County I have ever seen.
About thirty years ago I called Raleigh about a rude inspector and he was being to picky just to turn you down. Raleigh said he was in the wrong and punished him. But in the long run I was punished by him and other inspectors who stood by him. The old saying you can't fight city hall sometime comes into play.
But no matter what it is always better to face that person head on and work it out. You will get respect and it will always work out for the best.
Something I guess we learn with age. Not to mention I had just gotten out of the Marines. Semper Fi Buddy
 
As others have said, call him and talk. Most will not only tell you what you violated but even suggest a fix. Try to get along with him. Yes some are rude or on a power trip. Take this step by step. Without seeing the install its hard to see total picture. Some how with the way you bonded and grounded the gen something says TILT. Check to see if you dont somehow have a parallel neutral thru that gen..Last step is go over his head. They might be best of friends and you know where that lands you.
 
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