We installed 50 amp 4 wire outlets 120/208 volts in a RV storage area. Are these required to be GFI protected? My understanding is if it is a pedestal it would not be required so if that is the case why would just an outlet be required for the same RV usage? Inspector is requiring GFCI Breakers.
RV Outlet
- Thread starter bbuckway
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Dsg319
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia
- Occupation
- Wv Master “lectrician”
2020 Code Language:
210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuitsrated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuitsrated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Kitchens or areas with a sink and permanent provisions for either food preparation or cooking
(3) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles on rooftops shall not be required to be readily accessible other than from the rooftop.
(4) Outdoors
Exception No. 1 to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
Exception No. 2 to (4): In industrial establishments only, where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor program as specified in 590.6(B)(2) shall be permitted for only those receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater hazard if power is interrupted or having a design that is not compatible with GFCI protection.
(5) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink
Exception No. 1 to (5): In industrial laboratories, receptacles used to supply equipment where removal of power would introduce a greater hazard shall be permitted to be installed without GFCI protection.
Exception No. 2 to (5): Receptacleslocated in patient bed locations of Category 2 (general care) or Category 1 (critical care) spaces of health care facilities shall be permitted to comply with 517.21.
(6) Indoor damp and wet locations
(7) Locker rooms with associated showering facilities
(8) Garages, accessory buildings,service bays, and similar areas other than vehicle exhibition halls and showrooms
(9) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(10) Unfinished areas of basements
Exception to (1) through (5), (8), and (10): Listed locking support and mounting receptacles utilized in combination with compatible attachment fittings installed for the purpose of serving a ceiling luminaire or ceiling fan shall not be required to be ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected. If a general-purpose convenience receptacle is integral to the ceiling luminaire or ceiling fan, GFCI protection shall be provided.
(11) Laundry areas
(12) Bathtubs and shower stalls — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall
I am aware of 210.8(B) however in 551.71 it doesn't say anywhere that GFCI protection is required on 30 or 50 amp outlets but does specifically say that 15 & 20 amp outlets require GFCI protection. I can not find an RV pedestal that even has GFCI protection on the 30 and 50 amp outlets but does have it on the 15 & 20 amp outlets. Does 210.8 override 551.71 which is a specialized section. I would think 551.71 would rule. My problem with having GFCI protection in a storage situation is that in the winter if for some reason the GFCI breaker trips out in the winter there would be a freeze situation causing damage to the RV.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Would have been required in 2017 as well. Think that was first change of wording to include all receptacles 150 V to ground or less (in specified locations).
Art 210 would be general rules that apply unless something else says differently. The fact that 551 mentions the 15 and 20 amp requiring GFCI protection is redundant, but is probably still carry over along with poor coordination between CMP's from a time when that wouldn't have been required by art 210, but was otherwise "covered by other article"
Anyone's thoughts on this article?
Words from the Wizard of Watts
Your Electrical Expert in the Camping Industry
MONTHLY NEWSLETTER
Last December we in the industry received some very exciting news.
After months of tireless advocation and huge grassroots support from our industry we were able to get the very questionable NFPA 70 551.71(F) amended. That is to say, we were able to get it back to where the NEC Technical Committee wanted it before various end runs to make GFCI protection in RV Pedestals a requirement. The process to amend the 2020 NEC is called a Tentative Interim Amendment (TIA). This TIA states:
551.71(F) GFCI Protection.
Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.8(B). GFCI protection shall not be required for other than 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used in recreational vehicle site equipment.
Informational Note No. 1: Appliances used within the recreational vehicle can create leakage current levels at the supply receptacle(s) that could exceed the limits of a Class A GFCI device.
Informational Note No. 2: The definition of Power-Supply Assembly in 551.2 and the definition of Feeder in Article 100 clarifies that the power supply cord to a recreational vehicle is considered a feeder.
You can read and download a copy of the TIA here:
(https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Proposed_TIA_1474_NFPA_70.pdf)
What does that mean?
During the process to generate the 2017 NEC, a rather significant global change was made to a General Section of the NEC requiring that many (branch) circuits have ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel. The code reads:
“…all single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations…”. These locations include “outdoors”.
From this many AHJ’s and inspectors concluded that RV Site Electrical Equipment must have GFCI protection on the 30- and 50-amp receptacles in addition to the 20-amp receptacle where it is already required.
Flash forward to 2019…
The NEC Technical Committee (also called Code Panel 7) is made up of a number of RV industry partners as well as electrical equipment manufacturers, AHJ’s, safety and testing companies. This committee by overwhelming votes (80-92% on two votes) developed the draft 2020 NEC code RV pedestals to explicitly exclude from the need for 30 and 50-amp GFCI protection for the following reasons:
1. The 30- and 50-amp power on the RV pedestal are considered feeder circuits (those circuits that feed another panel) and not branch circuits. The changes made in 2017 applied to branch circuits such as the 20-amp receptacle on a RV Pedestal, not feeder circuits.
2. The leakage current allowed by UL for GFCI circuits when all the downstream GFCI receptacles are added together would be enough to constantly trip the pedestal GFCI circuit.
The end runs I mentioned above all came from one source trying to make it a requirement for GFCI protection on the 30- and 50-amp circuits. The TIA is not in any printed book, and the TIA is only for the 2020 code cycle. That means we will need to be vigilant and also go through the process for the 2023 code cycle as well.
If you find yourself trying to explain it to an electrical inspector or engineer, these two important facts should help your cause:
1. The RV pedestal provides power to an RV with a power supply assembly. The definition of a power supply assembly in NEC Article 551.2 and the definition of a feeder in NEC Article 100 clarifies that the power supply cord to an RV is a feeder.
2. NEC article 210.8(B) applies to branch circuits. The 30- and 50-amp service in RV site electrical equipment are feeder circuits and not branch circuits.”
The big take away is (at least for the foreseeable future) only 20A circuits need to be GFCI protected. However, we need to keep on top of this and other emerging issues in order to prevent negative impact on your industry.
As always – stay involved in the process .
Words from the Wizard of Watts
Your Electrical Expert in the Camping Industry
MONTHLY NEWSLETTER
THE REVISED NEC 551.71(F) FOR RV PARKS
March 15, 2020kategousgcomLast December we in the industry received some very exciting news.
After months of tireless advocation and huge grassroots support from our industry we were able to get the very questionable NFPA 70 551.71(F) amended. That is to say, we were able to get it back to where the NEC Technical Committee wanted it before various end runs to make GFCI protection in RV Pedestals a requirement. The process to amend the 2020 NEC is called a Tentative Interim Amendment (TIA). This TIA states:
551.71(F) GFCI Protection.
Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.8(B). GFCI protection shall not be required for other than 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used in recreational vehicle site equipment.
Informational Note No. 1: Appliances used within the recreational vehicle can create leakage current levels at the supply receptacle(s) that could exceed the limits of a Class A GFCI device.
Informational Note No. 2: The definition of Power-Supply Assembly in 551.2 and the definition of Feeder in Article 100 clarifies that the power supply cord to a recreational vehicle is considered a feeder.
You can read and download a copy of the TIA here:
(https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Proposed_TIA_1474_NFPA_70.pdf)
What does that mean?
During the process to generate the 2017 NEC, a rather significant global change was made to a General Section of the NEC requiring that many (branch) circuits have ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel. The code reads:
“…all single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations…”. These locations include “outdoors”.
From this many AHJ’s and inspectors concluded that RV Site Electrical Equipment must have GFCI protection on the 30- and 50-amp receptacles in addition to the 20-amp receptacle where it is already required.
Flash forward to 2019…
The NEC Technical Committee (also called Code Panel 7) is made up of a number of RV industry partners as well as electrical equipment manufacturers, AHJ’s, safety and testing companies. This committee by overwhelming votes (80-92% on two votes) developed the draft 2020 NEC code RV pedestals to explicitly exclude from the need for 30 and 50-amp GFCI protection for the following reasons:
1. The 30- and 50-amp power on the RV pedestal are considered feeder circuits (those circuits that feed another panel) and not branch circuits. The changes made in 2017 applied to branch circuits such as the 20-amp receptacle on a RV Pedestal, not feeder circuits.
2. The leakage current allowed by UL for GFCI circuits when all the downstream GFCI receptacles are added together would be enough to constantly trip the pedestal GFCI circuit.
The end runs I mentioned above all came from one source trying to make it a requirement for GFCI protection on the 30- and 50-amp circuits. The TIA is not in any printed book, and the TIA is only for the 2020 code cycle. That means we will need to be vigilant and also go through the process for the 2023 code cycle as well.
If you find yourself trying to explain it to an electrical inspector or engineer, these two important facts should help your cause:
1. The RV pedestal provides power to an RV with a power supply assembly. The definition of a power supply assembly in NEC Article 551.2 and the definition of a feeder in NEC Article 100 clarifies that the power supply cord to an RV is a feeder.
2. NEC article 210.8(B) applies to branch circuits. The 30- and 50-amp service in RV site electrical equipment are feeder circuits and not branch circuits.”
The big take away is (at least for the foreseeable future) only 20A circuits need to be GFCI protected. However, we need to keep on top of this and other emerging issues in order to prevent negative impact on your industry.
As always – stay involved in the process .
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Didn't check it out but if they actually got the TIA approved as worded there, then it would override the general requirement in 210.8, and would likely become permanent part of the next edition.
I do not totally agree with the part I bolded, though I guess the typical use here they basically are feeders, but the 50 amp receptacle is a type that is very commonly used for branch circuit purposes also.
I don't agree with anything that would suggest not required for a "pedestal" but is required for an individual receptacle not part of a pedestal unit, if it is serving a RV site it is serving a RV site whether it is in a individual outlet box, a pedestal, a pendant receptacle hanging from a tree, or whatever else you might dream up to serve the site.
I'm unsure on how its being enforced but Tennessee's electrical inspection hierarchy ruled that50 amp receptacles in an RV pedestal did not need to be GFCI but individual 50a receptacles not part of a pedestal did,
Their "logic" being the pedestal was a factory assembly whereas an individual receptacle was simply a branch circuit receptacles.
As pointed out above, a 2020 TIA addressed this:
Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.8(B). GFCI protection shall not be
required for other than 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used in the recreational vehicle site equipment.
Their "logic" being the pedestal was a factory assembly whereas an individual receptacle was simply a branch circuit receptacles.
As pointed out above, a 2020 TIA addressed this:
Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.8(B). GFCI protection shall not be
required for other than 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used in the recreational vehicle site equipment.
Last edited:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
So before this change involving the 30 and 50 amp receptacles did they allow non GFCI for the 20 amp receptacles if they were part of a pedestal, and for that matter for other than just 551 applications?
I can still buy a 3R assembly that has a 14-50 receptacle already installed in it and essentially nothing else of significance other than the enclosure. Can I claim it is a factory assembly and doesn't need GFCI protection even though most places it would be used would require GFCI protection by 210.8, or maybe even by art 590?
It doesn't make sense.
A 50 amp RV outlet is not used as a branch circuit, it's used as a feeder outlet to feed a panel in the RV.
Does that make it any difference ? no, the RV could become energized sitting on the tires and could use some GFI protection.
The fact that RV pedestal is a factory assembly doesn't make it any more safer than an individual 50 amp outlet installed for the same purpose.
There really needs to be more clarification on this.
JAP>
A 50 amp RV outlet is not used as a branch circuit, it's used as a feeder outlet to feed a panel in the RV.
Does that make it any difference ? no, the RV could become energized sitting on the tires and could use some GFI protection.
The fact that RV pedestal is a factory assembly doesn't make it any more safer than an individual 50 amp outlet installed for the same purpose.
There really needs to be more clarification on this.
JAP>
The TIA points out the reason for the exemption is RV appliances having leakage that will trip a GFCI.
I think the TN logic or legal loophole may be the RV pedestals are so identified as such by the manufacturer
I think the TN logic or legal loophole may be the RV pedestals are so identified as such by the manufacturer
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
loophole was for before the TIA came out though.
You still have a receptacle outlet that would require GFCI protection in many other similar uses.
That said I don't necessarily agree that 210.8 should require protection here anyway, think it is being pushed by manufacturers more so than real world statistics. I had no problem back when they eliminated many the exceptions for 5-15/5-20 receptacles such as dedicated appliance outlets in garages, basements, etc. there was real world issues involved with those that increase shock risks, mostly missing EGC pins on cord sets. That just don't happen with other than 5-15 and 5-20 cord caps though.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Should only be risk if also using the grounded conductor for equipment grounding (beyond service) which pretty much never been allowed for this situation unless maybe they made every pedestal service equipment, but I can't really see that ever being allowed either.
I can see some municipalities that have their own POCO personnel that also are the electricians in the parks and recreation areas being exempt from inspections and not knowing any better and setting them up with one conductor for both grounded and equipment grounding.
3 wire aluminum URD to the pedestals from the feeder breakers.
Run into it more than once.
JAP>
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I'd have to look but if it is an actual RV park I don't think that been allowed for long time, if ever, if it is 120/240 supply.
Not saying you might not run into that in maybe a single RV hookup away from other buildings on occasion before 2008(?) NEC but not in RV parks that were done in accordance with 551.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I'm not saying you don't encounter them, just saying they probably weren't code compliant when installed. Haven't had that many experiences myself with RV parks other than a couple smaller new installs of maybe 10-20 units max. Did have county fairground with RV hookups that I did upgrade to new several years ago. Original was installed by former fair board member who was also local telephone company technician back in 70's-80's. Some of what you have maybe looks good compared to what this setup was.You want to go look at some with me?
JAP>
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
- Status