Hello I am a electrical contractor in ohio, I have a customer who wants to clean up there electrical equipment, they don't want to replace any of it just unhook the unused equipment, the facility is a old ice cream manufacturing facility built in the 40's, it apperrs to have a 800 amp 3 phase service, the service pipe is 3" galvinised cloth cote 750 mcm, a cermatic werther head, it runs to a bull dog fused disconect witch in turn feeds a very large old bull dog fused switch bank of about 20 switches, I looked over this equipment and sugested to replace this old service, but they do not want to spend alot of money, I am going to take pictures of it tomorrow and will try to post them here, my concern is being able to bring this facility up to code, i do not want to start this job and find I can not bring it up to code due to the owners not wanting to spend any money , the city has all ready gotten involved and want it cleaned up., so what are your sugestions, thank you nolan
safe equipment?
- Thread starter nolangro
- Start date
- Status
the city wanted them to replace the service, instead they hired a engeneer firm who has now had prints drawn up, a one page drawling showing switch geer and circut to truck dock , that they still use, the circut to truck dock shows changes that must be done, the rest of the facility is not shown on the prints, they have leased out part of the building to good samaration food pantry, these prints have been approved, I called the city and they said they at least want the building made safe ( in there words) My concern is that this project will need to be inspected to satisify the city, I know this inspector well he will be very through and will want all the old equipment at least disconected and conduit removed, the city has told me they want the engeneer to sign off on this project stating it now is safe, if he does not sign off I could possible not get paid. I am intisapating this project to last at least a month, I have called the engeneer but only was able to leave a message with his secatary and no return call yet. as you can tell I have some resveration about this job, but the worst part is jobs have been very slow this year and I want to keep my guys working.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
He cannot make you remove equipment, unless it's in grave danger to the public. 5 years from now, they might want something that he made you take out. It's their right to keep their equipment, and if it's not being used (means it's not dangerous), it's not his place to ask it be removed.
shepelec
Senior Member
- Location
- Palmer, MA
The cost of the engineer probably could have paid for 1/2 the job.:roll:
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
I would bid only to perform the tasks that the contract asks for. Payment to be made when completed. Any other work is an extra. Be smart to get everyone involved to meet at this factory. If cant be handled that way i would run. You might need work but you really want a profit.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
I would devote some time learing to spell a few essential words. Words that you may use often in communication.
engeneer = engineer
geer = gear
circut = circuit
through is not the same as thorough
there is not the same as their
intisipating = anticipating
secatary = secretary
It's OK to use words like drawlings and resveration when drinking but when sober it can give people the wrong idea.
thank you for all you advice, I finaly got the engeineer to call me back will meet next week with him. when it comes to my spelling I am a old dog, to late to teach me spelling or gramer, there were no computers when i went to school, so I am typing with one finger and trying to hit the right keys so my appoligies for the spelling
I disagree, if under building code, you are changing the "use" of the building the city could make you bring it up to current code.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
Got a code reference? to make me remove a panel that is not being used? But might be used later, so I'd like to keep it in place? I don't think one exist
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
It appears to me that your contract should state exactly what you are going to do. Perhaps as simple as "Scope of work per drawing XXXX, revision X, dated xx/xx/xx".
If the city won't approve it because they think more work should be done, then that is someone else's problem.
Did the city approve the plans? If so, how can they come back and say additional work is now required?
If the city won't approve it because they think more work should be done, then that is someone else's problem.
Did the city approve the plans? If so, how can they come back and say additional work is now required?
It's not that simple. You don't just have a building and get to use it in any way you want without the building dept, the fire dept, and zoning signing off on the "Use". Different businesses have different requirements for exiting, lighting, fire suppression etc. So if the building is going to go from one use to another, say from a "F-1" into a "B" occupancy then you need to make the required changes to the structure to meet the code. It is as if you are building new or a Tennant improvement. At that point the city can make you deal with all the old systems, to make them up to what ever code cycle they deem safe, that may be 2010 code or 2005 it really is up to there judgement. A little hint, if you really want to put your self on the bad side of an inspector, start saying "it was existing" every time he points out something that should be addressed.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
I'm not new to this, I've been through change of use permits plenty of times in the strictest of jurisdictions before, which actually he never mentioned change of use. The highlighted part of your sentence is SURELY a joke.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
It's far better to thank him for his input and add it to the list of things that will never get done because it costs money the end user does not want to spend.
There is a difference between things that should be addressed and things that must be addressed, and in the current economic climate only the latter is likely to get any attention.
Surely I am not joking, But I guess since you have been doing this so long you may have fallen into the mind set that you know it all. What I am saying is don't go to an inspector or a city with the mind set that You are going to teach them there job. The OP may not have mentioned a change of use, but he did mention who the other tenant is, this may constitute a change of use whether they know it or not. But I guess all of us should not give any insight that may be beyond what is NEC even if it could have major impact on the overall job. Just because the OP is an electrician does not limit what the city may require of the job, and just because something is existing does not mean it is safe and allowed to stay. I am not judging the safety of equipment I have not seen, I'll leave that up to you, maybe it is safe maybe it is not. But don't go off thinking you know the whole job and city requirements from a single post. That is unless you have some jurisdictional crystal ball. If that is the case forgive me Oh know it all.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
No crystal ball needed. (what about warehouses full of vintage equipment)They can't make you remove something that is not in service. He can utilize the approved drawings, and anything other than that could be de energized. They would not be able to come up with a code reference. Call it your non working vintage electrical display
That would be a "Group S" occupancy, warehouses, very low restrictions on that type of "use group" but if you also have manufacturing in there then it is multi use occupancy and would fall under the "more restrictive occupancy group" requirements. I am not making this stuff up.
My point is don't just assume the AHJ is going to allow one thing or another. I would get them to walk through it with you and agree what can stay and what can go, and what needs replacing. You can't just say "it's existing" the systems are up to 70 years old ( based on the OP) and some of the parts may be in great condition, while others are garbage. I would find it easier to sell to the customer that X,Y,and Z needs to be done, if I had the AHJ/inspector backing me up. The building owner wants CHEAP and that may come with a higher price, SAFETY.
If you have a mess of electrical switches and panels etc. hanging on the wall disconnected, and they are mixed in with operating electrical parts they could call Art. 110.26 (F)(1) simply because if the equipment is not in use and is "display" it is no longer part of the electrical system and become "equipment foreign to the electrical installation".
- Status