Samsung

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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
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Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Helped on a job this week where Samsung inverter and HVAC unit were being installed. HVAC techs told our guys the inverter was 120 volts, then fed 230 to the unit, best I understood. Inverter was nameplated for 208/230 but diagram labeled terminations as L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral, in my experience. Further diagram said L1 Black and L2 White. Again, white is universally neutral in this country, except for lighting switch legs or cable use, etc. Of course, Samsung is Japanese equipment. Ladder diagram was vertical rather than horizontal.

Glad I wasn't in charge to decide how to power this up. Not sure what got decided. Will find out next week. Has anyone else had issues with Samsung or other Japanese equipment? I think we all have enough headaches without having to decipher nameplates and diagrams. Taking someone's word can be dangerous too. Songs change the instant something goes wrong. "I didn't tell you that", "that's not what I said", "you were responsible for proper hookup", etc.
 
Do you have a link to the actual equipment?

You are saying that you need to run a supply to a stand alone inverter then run a feed from it to the A/C equipment? I have never seen that before.
Or are referring to Samsung equipment that is labeled "Inverter Technology"? If so then please just ignore the term Inverter as it is just marketing hype.

I would supply the equipment based on nameplate not based on wire color markings.

BTW Samsung is Korean NOT Japanese.
 
jmellc said:
Helped on a job this week where Samsung inverter and HVAC unit were being installed. HVAC techs told our guys the inverter was 120 volts, then fed 230 to the unit, best I understood. Inverter was nameplated for 208/230 but diagram labeled terminations as L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral, in my experience. Further diagram said L1 Black and L2 White. Again, white is universally neutral in this country, except for lighting switch legs or cable use, etc. Of course, Samsung is Japanese equipment. Ladder diagram was vertical rather than horizontal.

Glad I wasn't in charge to decide how to power this up. Not sure what got decided. Will find out next week. Has anyone else had issues with Samsung or other Japanese equipment? I think we all have enough headaches without having to decipher nameplates and diagrams. Taking someone's word can be dangerous too. Songs change the instant something goes wrong. "I didn't tell you that", "that's not what I said", "you were responsible for proper hookup", etc.
Click to expand...

I can't say that this issue is specifically related to Samsung or Japanese made equipment. What I have noticed is that versions of models do change, and the correct installation instructions might not be included with the equipment. For instance, version A came with a 115V blower motor, but version B has a 208-230V blower motor.The version B model is delivered with version A instruction included. Both versions have heating elements that operate on single phase 230V.

My tendency on installs is to read the instructions and then verify that the equipment matches. Unfortunately, there are often anomalies like you mention inside the units.

If your contract simply included providing 208-230V supply to a disconnect, then your responsibility might end right there.

However, if you are responsible for making the final connections, then you might need to go a little further with your investigation. I believe you can trust the nameplate on the actual motor or hermetic compressor more than the equipment name plate. Will the equipment wiring provide the proper voltage to the motor(s) in question? Are the contactors, relays, transformers and other devices rated for the load they will be handling even though connections are marked L1 and N instead of L1 and L2?

This can add a significant amount of time to an install.

I have no problem calling the equipment manufacturer if I have any doubts.

Just my thoughts on the subject to get the ball rolling. I'll be interested in reading your follow-up comments.
 
Sorry, I don't have a link. Inverter is outdoors and feeds a unit on 4th floor of a building. I didn't have time to go through the units and check motor and compressor. I was in and out of that job to several others. Both inverter and unit have 208/230 nameplate.
 
If you are calling the outside condensing unit of a split system an inverter please don't. An inverter is a device that changes DC into AC. The condensing unit or the inside unit might have a inverter inside of it but that is of zero concern for branch circuit connection requirements.
 
curt swartz said:
If you are calling the outside condensing unit of a split system an inverter please don't. An inverter is a device that changes DC into AC. The condensing unit or the inside unit might have a inverter inside of it but that is of zero concern for branch circuit connection requirements.
Click to expand...
The biggest branch circuit difference with an inverter unit is much lower or zero startup surge.
 
curt swartz said:
If you are calling the outside condensing unit of a split system an inverter please don't. An inverter is a device that changes DC into AC. The condensing unit or the inside unit might have a inverter inside of it but that is of zero concern for branch circuit connection requirements.
Click to expand...

In air conditioning and refrigeration, the term "Inverter" is taking on a whole different meaning than what we would normally think about when we use terms like "transformer", "alternator", "converter" and "inverter". For some manufacturers the term has no more meaning than a trademark.

Baldor has 5hp blower motors with nameplates that state "Inverter Ready". It appears that those are simply 3 phase induction motors that were built to handle a variable freq. drive.

Other companies like Samsung are using the term "inverter" to refer to their hermetic compressors or blower motors that they say use digital inverter technology. Which is the opposite of what I think you and I consider an inverter. In my mind, modules for these ECM motors do exactly the opposite of what an inverter does. These units are provided with AC supply, but the motor module "converts" the AC to DC to run the DC motor.

Talk about confusing. If I have it wrong, then please set me straight because this is driving me nuts.


http://www.baldor.com/brands/baldor...s/general-purpose/three-phase-enclosed-motors
https://news.samsung.com/global/how...essor-has-transformed-the-modern-refrigerator
 
jmellc said:
Sorry, I don't have a link. Inverter is outdoors and feeds a unit on 4th floor of a building. I didn't have time to go through the units and check motor and compressor. I was in and out of that job to several others. Both inverter and unit have 208/230 nameplate.
Click to expand...

If your guys are making the final terminations, get a work order signed by someone that specifically describes what is getting landed on which terminal. Then it's their headache.
 
jmellc said:
Helped on a job this week where Samsung inverter and HVAC unit were being installed. HVAC techs told our guys the inverter was 120 volts, then fed 230 to the unit, best I understood. Inverter was nameplated for 208/230 but diagram labeled terminations as L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral, in my experience. Further diagram said L1 Black and L2 White. Again, white is universally neutral in this country, except for lighting switch legs or cable use, etc. Of course, Samsung is Japanese equipment. Ladder diagram was vertical rather than horizontal.

Glad I wasn't in charge to decide how to power this up. Not sure what got decided. Will find out next week. Has anyone else had issues with Samsung or other Japanese equipment? I think we all have enough headaches without having to decipher nameplates and diagrams. Taking someone's word can be dangerous too. Songs change the instant something goes wrong. "I didn't tell you that", "that's not what I said", "you were responsible for proper hookup", etc.
Click to expand...
Almost everywhere in the world, EXCEPT North America, uses a 3 phase distribution system that is (nominally) 400y230V. So if you want to feed something with 230V, it IS Line and Neutral. We are the ones who are different in that regard. But if it is designed for 230V, give it 230V, forget the neutral issue. What that second wire is called is irrelevant.

Generally, appliance and equipment mfrs are wise enough to provide a North American wiring diagram or a different terminal numbering scheme for products sold here. When you don't see it,
Sometimes that means someone imported versions that were not meant for sale here. The internet has facilitated this to where it happens a lot more than it used to. In the past, if you wanted a Samsung unit, it came through a Samsung dealer who only ordered the NA versions. Now, people buy them cheaper direct from some supplier in China or Korea and save a few dollars, not realizing that they are going to get something that becomes a problem for the installers.
 
Now, people buy them cheaper direct from some supplier in China or Korea and save a few dollars, not realizing that they are going to get something that becomes a problem for the installers.
Click to expand...

Not to mention warranty issues. I've had issues with Fujitsu and tech support wouldn't even talk to you unless you provided serial numbers for every piece.

-Hal
 
iwire said:
Regardless of the marketing terms the outdoor unit is a condenser.
Click to expand...
Very likely it has reverse operation capabilities (heat pump), in which the outdoor unit is the condenser while in cooling mode but is the evaporator while in heating mode.
 
jmellc said:
Helped on a job this week where Samsung inverter and HVAC unit were being installed. HVAC techs told our guys the inverter was 120 volts, then fed 230 to the unit, best I understood. Inverter was nameplated for 208/230 but diagram labeled terminations as L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral, in my experience. Further diagram said L1 Black and L2 White. Again, white is universally neutral in this country,
Click to expand...


"was nameplated for 208/230"
if it is rated for 230v then 240v would not damage it !

"L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral"

Samsung is an international brand used around the world
In Australia and Europe L1 and Neutral means 240v.

Some mis understading in interpretation maybe.
But I still don't see a reason for failure.
if it was 120v then it would not have a 230v nameplate on it ?

What am I missing ?
 
dmxtothemax said:
"was nameplated for 208/230"
if it is rated for 230v then 240v would not damage it !

"L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral"

Samsung is an international brand used around the world
In Australia and Europe L1 and Neutral means 240v.

Some mis understading in interpretation maybe.
But I still don't see a reason for failure.
if it was 120v then it would not have a 230v nameplate on it ?

What am I missing ?
Click to expand...
Well said.

This is likely either "mini split" or a "variable refrigerant flow" type of system, both of which more or less were popular outside the US before they started to make their way into the US.
 
dmxtothemax said:
"was nameplated for 208/230"
if it is rated for 230v then 240v would not damage it !

"L1 and N, which almost always means hot and neutral"

Samsung is an international brand used around the world
In Australia and Europe L1 and Neutral means 240v.

Some mis understading in interpretation maybe.
But I still don't see a reason for failure.
if it was 120v then it would not have a 230v nameplate on it ?

What am I missing ?
Click to expand...

If you are willing, I would like to continue the discussion.

For most air conditioning and heat pump units using PSC or CRCS motors , I wholeheartedly agree that if the name plate states 208/230VAC, then it should run just fine if the supply voltage is 10% less than 208VAC (187.2VAC) and if the supply voltage is 10% greater than 230VAC (253VAC).

The DC motors that are in the ECM constant torque and variable speed units seem to be highly durable. However, the motor modules seem to be rather delicate. I'm not confident that they can handle what we normally consider to be an acceptable range of supply voltage.

I would greatly appreciate it if some of the highly knowledgable people on this forum would add a few remarks on the ability of the ECM motor modules to handle variances in voltage supply. I have read page after page of discussions on this forum about "power factor" for instance. So, I know there is no shortage of expertise here.

Thank you in advance.
 
David Goodman said:
If you are willing, I would like to continue the discussion.

For most air conditioning and heat pump units using PSC or CRCS motors , I wholeheartedly agree that if the name plate states 208/230VAC, then it should run just fine if the supply voltage is 10% less than 208VAC (187.2VAC) and if the supply voltage is 10% greater than 230VAC (253VAC).

The DC motors that are in the ECM constant torque and variable speed units seem to be highly durable. However, the motor modules seem to be rather delicate. I'm not confident that they can handle what we normally consider to be an acceptable range of supply voltage.

I would greatly appreciate it if some of the highly knowledgable people on this forum would add a few remarks on the ability of the ECM motor modules to handle variances in voltage supply. I have read page after page of discussions on this forum about "power factor" for instance. So, I know there is no shortage of expertise here.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
Power factor is not going to be an issue with ECM or VFD units, they hit a rectifier as about first thing in the power supply, there could be some harmonic distortion of the supply but no inductive power factor like there is for across the line induction motors.
 
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