What's up everyone. I'm trying to find an easier way of doing this. I have a 200a SD outside and the MSP is about 70ft away in the garage on the other side of the house (why it was built like this is beyond me). Ill be installing a subpanel a few feet away from the SD outside. Instead of doing a run from the MSP across the house to the subpanel via the tiny attic, is their any other ideas were I may be able to utilize the SD to accomplish this? The reason for the outside panel will be because I'm adding 2 spa panels for a jacuzzi and a pool heater and a circuit or 2 for lights and such outside.
SD Outside, MSP inside (far away) need a subpanel outside
- Thread starter Batt3ryz
- Start date
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
SD=Service Disconnect
MSP=?
MSP=?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I suspect main service panel---
Also not sure what MSP is, but I'll assume it is a panel that serves the whole house.
Two options I thought of:
1. Feeder tap - 240.21
2. Use a 200A panel with feed-through lugs adjacent to the service disconnect, reroute the existing feeder from the load side of the service disconnect to the feed-through lugs, and feed the new panel from the load side of the service disconnect.
Two options I thought of:
1. Feeder tap - 240.21
2. Use a 200A panel with feed-through lugs adjacent to the service disconnect, reroute the existing feeder from the load side of the service disconnect to the feed-through lugs, and feed the new panel from the load side of the service disconnect.
If the poco puts the service drop/meter where it is, and it was desired to put the panel in the garage, your options basically are to run the service entrance conductors on the outside of the building, or concrete encase them inside the building (which then the code defines them as "outside"). Then you can enter the building in the garage and put the service equipment (a MCB panel) there, assuming the poco is ok with all that. The other option is the way it is installed, which is a whole lot easier and cheaper (and probably less ugly).
Service Disconnect and Main Service Panel. No subpanels in this house
I like that idea of the feedthrough. The feeder tap was my initial idea but i would have to research that 240.1 a bit. I tried uploading a picture but its not uploading.
Next question would be... If I tap off the SD Feeder, I would theoretically still have 1 MSP just split into 2 separate panels on opposite sides of the house, correct? Is this ok to do? Another option would be to do the feed-through on the new panel outside that feeds back into the existing panel in the garage. But then would I have to convert the existing panel to a subpanel by separating grounds? Not sure the best route to take.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
To me an SD and MSP are the same thing. I don't use the term 'service' if it's not the NEC service. So is your MSP really an Main Distribution Panel? The SD feeds the panel?
If so you could probably do a load-side feeder tap to an additional panel.
If so you could probably do a load-side feeder tap to an additional panel.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
If you're installing a new service disconnect (and not calling it an Emergency Disconnect) then everything downstream is a subpanel in the sense of needing ground separated from neutral.
A diagram of this project might help.
Electrical meter feeds into a Disconnect panel outside (200a Murray breaker in its own enclosure). It then feeds through the attic to the other side of house in the garage where the distribution panel is. I call it the main service panel because the ground and neutrals are bonded. There is no current subpanel. My idea is to add a panel outside for further circuits for the backyard that he is updating as well as adding 2 spa panels.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Is the feeder between the disconnect and existing distribution panel already installed? If yes, it is 3-wire or 4-wire, i.e. does it have a ground?
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Looks like wires in conduit. If it's continuous metal conduit it can be used as the EGC. Grounds should never have been landed on the neutral bar in the panel, that is and was a code violation. I might test the continuity of the conduit but assuming it's ok I'd be separating neutrals and grounds in that panel.
You could totally do a feeder tap to a new panel by the service disconnect.
You could totally do a feeder tap to a new panel by the service disconnect.
This was the validation I was looking for. I thought their was something off about this. I kind of want to avoid touching the current panel inside at all.
By doing a tap to a new panel (maybe a 125a) ill just install it correctly as a subpanel (separating Neutral). This would have no effect on the existing electricals in the house. Ill just Use EMT to continue the EGC through the conduit/panel and then separate the Neutral in the new panel. Now tapping wise I would want use a (3) B-Taps on the Load side of the disconnect?
It looks to me that the neutral is bonded to the enclosure of the service disconcert as it should be, that is your main bonding jumper. Now you also essentially have a second bonding jumper in the existing panel, which is resulting in objectional current on the EGC (the conduit). That panel should have its neutral bar separated from ground to remedy this. Also, looking at that picture it appears that panel has about seven different brand breakers in it which is also not good.
After that, you just need a three wire + ground feeder tap off the existing feeder, you could use the EMT for the ground or use a wire-type EGC, and yes you need to keep the neutral separate from ground.
Also, I see you've shown a tap box for the two spa panels, why not just run these straight out of the new panel?
Where is the GEC connected to the grounded conductor in all this?
After that, you just need a three wire + ground feeder tap off the existing feeder, you could use the EMT for the ground or use a wire-type EGC, and yes you need to keep the neutral separate from ground.
Also, I see you've shown a tap box for the two spa panels, why not just run these straight out of the new panel?
Where is the GEC connected to the grounded conductor in all this?
Yea I was told it was built in the 70's. Also its in South Florida. Down here I've seen homeowners do some wild things in their panels lol. I'm going to leave the panel and disconnect as is and just tap off the lines between the disconnect and the existing panel to add a 125a outdoor subpanel. The junction box was a thought to have 1 run of conduit exposed instead of 2 smaller ones along the wall or underground. Not needed necessarily, just esthetically more pleasing imo. The pool heater and jacuzzi are going to be installed in the same general area.
"Where is the GEC connected to the grounded conductor in all this?" You mean when i install or currently? Currently to a grounding rod and waterpipe. New subpanel is going to use the conduit as EGC from the disconnect enclosure, add ground strip and separate the neutral in the new panel. (3) #2 Cu & (1) #6 ground Cu