Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

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aelectricalman

aelectricalman

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Location
KY
Responded to a call last week where lady had stepped in to shower and was electricuted. I reported to the home and started my check list of usual culprits.

A. Checked to see if water ground was present.
No.

B. During visit, I took a screw driver, wetted the groud near the service, stab the screwdriver into the ground and tested voltage between the spicket and the ground. 0 volts. Nothing.

C. Next, I inspected the fuse box and disconnects. All was well. No appearent problems. Black to Black , Red to Red and White to White. All fused.
checked water heater. Looked new, connections were black to black, red to red and white to ground.

D. Tried to get lady to recreate the exact conditions for which she was shocked. Cut on a few lights here and there. Cut on coffee maker, and things that may be on at 7:30 am, during the time of incident. No luck recreating this.

E. Looked into the meter of the home, it looked fine. There was a top meter being used and a second meter slot that was capped off. Nothing funny, tests worked out ok. Walked over to tub, turned the tub on and let in run for 10 minutes with my foot in tub, to indirectly showing her that her cheese has fallen off of her cracker. With my foot still in tub after 10 minutes and leaving it in the tub for 5 more minutes, things were about to change. While explaining to the lady that I feel I have fixed her problem, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, I got my *** knocked off by a surge in the water. This only happened 15 minutes into the experiment.

Ah ha!!! I found the problem. Lets see if someone can figure this out? The first correct answer wins. Not sure what you win, but you win.

[ April 22, 2005, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

The second heating element in the water heater was the culprit!

Dave
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Because the WH thermostat doesn't allow it to be energized until the water temp in the tank drops.
Would like to have seen the whole episode though!!! LOL!

....Look Mam...if there was a problem would I being doing this?......ZZzZzZzzZzzzz :D
Dave
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

I thought the lady was dead when you said she was electrocuted in the original post. :D
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Originally posted by aelectricalman:
C. Next, I inspected the fuse box and disconnects. All was well. No appearent problems. Black to Black , Red to Red and White to White. All fused.
Click to expand...
If they were all fused, then all was not well. :D

That is pretty clever, I wouldn't have gotten that.
icon14.gif
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

"checked water heater. Looked new, connections were black to black, red to red and white to ground. "

white to ground ? Why was there a white to ground instead of a green or bare to ground.
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Dave,that might not be a bad idea.I was always wondering if grounding a water heater was enough.Being they are glass lined and likely to use pvc or cpvc water lines,there is the chance of an element opening up and have water in contact with open portion.Draw this out in a diagram and there is only one path back to ground and thats thru the water
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Ok, in 1965-80 or so, our electric company use to use an off peak meter for the water heater only. It allowed the homeowner to heat their water heater using 120 during the night. It was at a cheaper rate and is cheaper to operate than heating it during the day. The way it work is this. A leg was branched from the second meter and ran straight to the bottom heating element of the water heater. This wire was white and was not identified. The regular 220 system of the water heater was also in the junction of the water heater. To make a long story short, there were three wires in the water heater junction box. Black, red and White. Well, a new water heater was installed by a jack leg. He looked at the wires, Black, red and white. And hooked them up, Hot, Hot, Ground. Bad mistake. The configuration was HOt, hot ,hot. Now there is 120 volts to the frame of the water heater. So, now the question is why did she not get shocked sooner than she did? The water heater was new but not that new. It was 5 months old. Plenty of time to get zapped. What is going on. O, there was no water ground.
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

there was no jumper over the cold to hot, no continuity, back to panel
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Paul's right. The breaker wouldn't trip if the water pipe wasn't bonded.

If the entire system wasn't grounded, then she wouldn't complete a circuit by touching the tub. Also, the tub probably isn't conductive, and the knob on the tub might not have been conductive. Fault paths are interesting. :)

Are you still talking about the same incident?
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

What are you implying by that statement? That is the reason she was electricuted? Or that is the reason she hasent been shocked until now? There is no water ground on the cold to return the path to the panel. Im unclear. Sorry.

[ April 24, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

I'm saying, that's probably why it took some serious fanagling to recreate the shock, for one.

For two, the circuit breaker would trip if the water pipe were bonded as it should have been. If the water pipe is electrically "floating", then it has no means to trip a breaker. There's no path back to the panel to complete the circuit.

You should sell her on bonding her system per 250.104. ;)
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

Thanks for clarification. I did make these corrections when I fixed the system. I changed the set up of the water heater to configure it to the correct 3 wire set up. Also, I added a water ground and bonded the two water lines with a bonding jumper per 250.64(a), (b) and (e).
 
Re: Second riddle I promised along time ago, but forgot.

I joined your forum specifically to respond to this issue. It may or may not be a common problem. But I wanted to share my experience in hopes of helping others resolve the issue.

It started when my children compained of being "shocked in the shower". I was never personally able to replicate the problem. My wife then confirmed the problem early one morning. First, everyone is fine. No electrocutions, thank God!

I'll save you the details of my exhausting circuit testing. Suffice it to say, I wasted days troubleshooting. My lighting circuits would behave strangely. I would do a load of laundry and all the lights in the house would dim and brighten to the rythm of the washer's agitator. Other times, the lights would brighten and dim for seemingly no reason at all.

Finally, I went into the back yard and looked up at my service pole. Sure enough, there was my house neutral swingin' in the breeze! I called the power company. They came out within an hour and fixed the problem.

The moral of the story is never your father's advice. ALWAYS check the gas tank!

I hope this helps.

Tbulgrin.
 
I read the post and then got up to get a cup of coffee. Walking down the hall I thought "top water heater element", so I got it right too.
Another thing. Even if the water line was bonded, it doesn't necessarily mean that the breaker (or fuse) would open. There has to be enough current flow from the exposed element, thru the water, to ground to accomplish that. It's possible to be electrocuted (killed by my definition) in this scenario without the circuit opening.
steve
 
hillbilly said:
Even if the water line was bonded, it doesn't necessarily mean that the breaker (or fuse) would open. There has to be enough current flow from the exposed element, thru the water, to ground to accomplish that. It's possible to be electrocuted (killed by my definition) in this scenario without the circuit opening.
steve
Click to expand...

This term has bothered me for a long time, too. I don't like to hear people telling me how they were electrocuted when they were shocked. Now if they had to be recessitated and "brought back" to the world of the living, then that term may be accurate.

Anyway aelectricalman, I'm glad you and the HO are OK. We don't always get a chance to write about the experience later.
 
aelectricalman said:
Responded to a call last week where lady had stepped in to shower and was electricuted. I reported to the home and started my check list of usual culprits.

A. Checked to see if water ground was present.
No.

B. During visit, I took a screw driver, wetted the groud near the service, stab the screwdriver into the ground and tested voltage between the spicket and the ground. 0 volts. Nothing.

C. Next, I inspected the fuse box and disconnects. All was well. No appearent problems. Black to Black , Red to Red and White to White. All fused.
checked water heater. Looked new, connections were black to black, red to red and white to ground.

D. Tried to get lady to recreate the exact conditions for which she was shocked. Cut on a few lights here and there. Cut on coffee maker, and things that may be on at 7:30 am, during the time of incident. No luck recreating this.

E. Looked into the meter of the home, it looked fine. There was a top meter being used and a second meter slot that was capped off. Nothing funny, tests worked out ok. Walked over to tub, turned the tub on and let in run for 10 minutes with my foot in tub, to indirectly showing her that her cheese has fallen off of her cracker. With my foot still in tub after 10 minutes and leaving it in the tub for 5 more minutes, things were about to change. While explaining to the lady that I feel I have fixed her problem, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, I got my *** knocked off by a surge in the water. This only happened 15 minutes into the experiment.

Ah ha!!! I found the problem. Lets see if someone can figure this out? The first correct answer wins. Not sure what you win, but you win.

[ April 22, 2005, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
Click to expand...

from webster:

e?lec?tro?cute (ĭ-lĕk'trə-kyūt')
tr.v., -cut?ed, -cut?ing, -cutes.
To kill with electricity: a worker who was electrocuted by a high-tension wire.
To execute (a condemned prisoner) by means of electricity.

So how did she tell you about it? maybe she was shocked? :)

That term gets used wrong a lot!
 
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