Seeking advice on how to get a good estimate

[Megabyte]

Hello Everyone,
I have been in the controls engineering field for 9 years now at a few different companies. I currently work for the end-user rather than as an integrator or systems provider. Seeing how projects are run from the end-user side is rather different for me. I'm really new to the way this company works, and I do not know how typical it is.

For those electricians who do estimations and run installations, what do you typically receive from the end-user? We are looking for a ballpark estimate for budgeting purposes. The actual install will be on T&M.

The package I have attempted to bid contains the following:

• Explanation of requested services (wire all devices from the designated panel to the field device. Control wiring only, no 480)
• Building drawings with dimensions and major equipment marked
• P&IDs
• Tentative panel locations--We don't have panel drawings yet, those come from our integrator.
• IO list (with the termination panel, the device type, device voltage, pipe size)
• Information for classified area zoning (as in which areas are classified and what enclosures they land to)
  • for the classified areas, we know we will be using intrinsically safe components and barriers

I keep getting a lot of questions from the bidder along the lines of:

• "what fittings are needed for the valves?"--This isn't really something I typically do, I gave them the valve sheet, our spec, and a picture of the valve
• "How do I wire the valves?"--Most are 120 solenoid activated pneumatic valves
• "How do I do wiring on an intrinsically safe circuit?"--I would typically expect the electrical firm to know this. Am I supposed to spec every gland and conduit they use?

Those of you that do this regularly, can you share what sort of information you would put/receive in a bid package?

 

[tortuga]

Those of you that do this regularly, can you share what sort of information you would put/receive in a bid package?

I'd pass on bidding Article 504 (Intrinsically Safe) work unless an EE gave me their stamped sealed plans detailing every everything in the 'zone' down to the nut bolt and screw, the strip gauge, the brand of sealing compound, everything. I would expect the EE to assume all liability for the design, plan and layout of an IS system as I am not qualified to design such a system. I'd also want the EE to be locally available.

 

[Strathead]

Hello Everyone,
I have been in the controls engineering field for 9 years now at a few different companies. I currently work for the end-user rather than as an integrator or systems provider. Seeing how projects are run from the end-user side is rather different for me. I'm really new to the way this company works, and I do not know how typical it is.

For those electricians who do estimations and run installations, what do you typically receive from the end-user? We are looking for a ballpark estimate for budgeting purposes. The actual install will be on T&M.

The package I have attempted to bid contains the following:

• Explanation of requested services (wire all devices from the designated panel to the field device. Control wiring only, no 480)
• Building drawings with dimensions and major equipment marked
• P&IDs
• Tentative panel locations--We don't have panel drawings yet, those come from our integrator.
• IO list (with the termination panel, the device type, device voltage, pipe size)
• Information for classified area zoning (as in which areas are classified and what enclosures they land to)
  • for the classified areas, we know we will be using intrinsically safe components and barriers

I keep getting a lot of questions from the bidder along the lines of:

• "what fittings are needed for the valves?"--This isn't really something I typically do, I gave them the valve sheet, our spec, and a picture of the valve
• "How do I wire the valves?"--Most are 120 solenoid activated pneumatic valves
• "How do I do wiring on an intrinsically safe circuit?"--I would typically expect the electrical firm to know this. Am I supposed to spec every gland and conduit they use?

Those of you that do this regularly, can you share what sort of information you would put/receive in a bid package?

For years, I did work exactly as you are describing. First off, you aren't going to want your "typical" electrician, any more than you would hire a residential electrician to design and install your fire alarm system. So once you find a competent company, don't bid out the work, get budgets from them and proceed with T and M. I rarely did a project that the scope didn't change throughout. As things evolved, I would usually see the preliminary schematics and the P&ID and help the PE with fleshing it out. We would give a budget based on what we knew and proceed with the work on T and M. They changed the engineer a couple times through the years. Only once did we have a problem. I made it understood that he was welcome to go out and get a price from someone else, but we were comfortable with our pricing and service. He did reach out to others, but stayed with us and was happy after that. So, the one thing I don't see on your list is the schematics, I expect you do use those, right? The P&ID is more for an overview than specifics, and honestly, until I was more in helping them on the design side, I rarely even glanced at it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

For years, I did work exactly as you are describing. First off, you aren't going to want your "typical" electrician, any more than you would hire a residential electrician to design and install your fire alarm system. So once you find a competent company, don't bid out the work, get budgets from them and proceed with T and M. I rarely did a project that the scope didn't change throughout. As things evolved, I would usually see the preliminary schematics and the P&ID and help the PE with fleshing it out. We would give a budget based on what we knew and proceed with the work on T and M. They changed the engineer a couple times through the years. Only once did we have a problem. I made it understood that he was welcome to go out and get a price from someone else, but we were comfortable with our pricing and service. He did reach out to others, but stayed with us and was happy after that. So, the one thing I don't see on your list is the schematics, I expect you do use those, right? The P&ID is more for an overview than specifics, and honestly, until I was more in helping them on the design side, I rarely even glanced at it.

I did a lot of my industrial project pricing from the P&IDs. Often developed both pricing and electrical schematics starting only from a set of P&IDs and an equipment list. Most of these jobs were for a very long term client and were T&M.

 

[Strathead]

I did a lot of my industrial project pricing from the P&IDs. Often developed both pricing and electrical schematics starting only from a set of P&IDs and an equipment list. Most of these jobs were for a very long term client and were T&M.

I agree that it can be done, but it REALLY takes experience and knowledge to do it that way. Since almost all of my learning has been seat of the pants. I struggled with understanding P&ID's until I was able to collate them with the schematics and floor plans several times.

 

[petersonra]

To be candid I am ecstatic if I can find an electrical contractor that can actually wire from schematic drawings. Usually what ends up happening is somebody has to make a list of all the wires for the Field electricians to wire from showing where the wire starts and where it ends.

Once in a blue moon you get an electrician who can figure this out from looking at the schematics but a good controls electrician is pretty rare. The ironic thing is that the electrical contractors think that because their guys can wire from a wire list they're good controls electricians.

Eventually it gets worked out but it can be pretty painful sometimes. You just have to work with the people you have available and help them to get their job done.

Incidentally I'm inclined to agree that any work done in a classified area regardless of the protection method is going to require better drawings and more detail than for work done in a non-classified area. I have run across more than one electrical contractor that is pretty good at doing this themselves but it is usually because they have someone on board that actually works out these details for the field electricians to follow. I don't have to do it but they have someone that can do it for me.

For reasons that don't make any sense to me, a lot of electricians do not like wire way and much prefer conduit. Personally I like wire way because it's a whole lot easier to add an extra conductor that needs to be added down the road. I think it's because they don't like to figure out how to support them properly.

 

[Strathead]

To be candid I am ecstatic if I can find an electrical contractor that can actually wire from schematic drawings. Usually what ends up happening is somebody has to make a list of all the wires for the Field electricians to wire from showing where the wire starts and where it ends.

Once in a blue moon you get an electrician who can figure this out from looking at the schematics but a good controls electrician is pretty rare. The ironic thing is that the electrical contractors think that because their guys can wire from a wire list they're good controls electricians.

Eventually it gets worked out but it can be pretty painful sometimes. You just have to work with the people you have available and help them to get their job done.

Incidentally I'm inclined to agree that any work done in a classified area regardless of the protection method is going to require better drawings and more detail than for work done in a non-classified area. I have run across more than one electrical contractor that is pretty good at doing this themselves but it is usually because they have someone on board that actually works out these details for the field electricians to follow. I don't have to do it but they have someone that can do it for me.

For reasons that don't make any sense to me, a lot of electricians do not like wire way and much prefer conduit. Personally I like wire way because it's a whole lot easier to add an extra conductor that needs to be added down the road. I think it's because they don't like to figure out how to support them properly.

Yeah, I actually need to understand how the system I am working on works, in order to feel good about wiring it. The work that I did as described above was for a company that made doping gasses for silicone chips. Once the company engineers got comfortable with me, they shared their work earlier on and found that while I may not know the process required, I would often ask the right question that would trigger their brain to correcting things. We worked well together for years until I moved on to another company that didn't service that area. I don't know what they ended up doing.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

....

For reasons that don't make any sense to me, a lot of electricians do not like wire way and much prefer conduit. Personally I like wire way because it's a whole lot easier to add an extra conductor that needs to be added down the road. I think it's because they don't like to figure out how to support them properly.

Unless all of the equipment close enough to be connected to the wireway with flex, I find the use of a wireway to be much more labor intensive and costly. Also, unless you overfill your conduit, it is not difficult to pull an additional conductor through. Typically you would attach the new conductor(s) and a new EGC to the existing EGC and pull the new wires in.