Self contained spa near pool

[Poweranytime]

Nothing really clear about art 680.22 when it comes to a self contained hot tub near the edge of an inground pool. AHJ cited 680.22(D) which would be 10’. He said the equipment in the hot tub, motors, controller etc. But when I did some more research examples given were fire alarms, communications and low volt stuff. Didn’t do or sell the job yet just want some insight.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Nothing really clear about art 680.22 when it comes to a self contained hot tub near the edge of an inground pool. AHJ cited 680.22(D) which would be 10’. He said the equipment in the hot tub, motors, controller etc. But when I did some more research examples given were fire alarms, communications and low volt stuff. Didn’t do or sell the job yet just want some insight.

As long as the pool itself meets code (bonding, lighting, fans, etc etc), then having a manufactured tub near that correct pool should not be an issue as long as the tub also is installed per NEC code. Manufactured tubs are much easier in terms of NEC code. I would at least put tub on a gfci ckt/outlet regardless of if the tub itself has built-in gfi, like the plug-in types do, etc. If possible, I would also bond tub equip over to the pool bonding. My hardwired manufactured tub is a 240v 4-wire (4+1bond) on the terminals area, L-N-L-EGC + bond lug. The bond lug is same as EGC on my tub. This bond lug connects to a copper spiral under the concrete pad that the tub sits on, and connects to all the metal near the tub, as well as two 10ft ground (earth) rods.

So, I not sure what his 10ft comment means. Perhaps call your AHJ and ask for a detailed explanation.

 

[Craigv]

Nothing really clear about art 680.22 when it comes to a self contained hot tub near the edge of an inground pool. AHJ cited 680.22(D) which would be 10’. He said the equipment in the hot tub, motors, controller etc. But when I did some more research examples given were fire alarms, communications and low volt stuff. Didn’t do or sell the job yet just want some insight.

He sounds confused. 680.22(D) relates to "Other Outlets": "Other outlets shall be not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from the inside walls of the pool. Measurements shall be determined in accordance with 680.22(A)(5)."

Is there an outlet that was conforming to the 10 ft rule when measured from the pool, but is now too close to the tub?

ETA: brain fart. I was confusing outlets with receptacles. He might be saying the equipment within the tub is considered "outlets" and is within the 10 ft limit.

 

[FionaZuppa]

680.22D in 2017 nec has a info note. A self-contained manufactured UL listed spa does not fit that info note IMHO.

 

[kwired]

He sounds confused. 680.22(D) relates to "Other Outlets": "Other outlets shall be not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from the inside walls of the pool. Measurements shall be determined in accordance with 680.22(A)(5)."

Is there an outlet that was conforming to the 10 ft rule when measured from the pool, but is now too close to the tub?

ETA: brain fart. I was confusing outlets with receptacles. He might be saying the equipment within the tub is considered "outlets" and is within the 10 ft limit.

The hot tub circuit does by definition have an "outlet". Exactly where that outlet is located is something that can be debated in no less then 300 posts here

680.22D in 2017 nec has a info note. A self-contained manufactured UL listed spa does not fit that info note IMHO.

"but are not limited to" leaves the door wide open though.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The hot tub circuit does by definition have an "outlet". Exactly where that outlet is located is something that can be debated in no less then 300 posts here

"but are not limited to" leaves the door wide open though.

I disagree.

A outlet is where the end user takes power from, like adding a jbox to where a ckt terminates and then a microwave or receptacle hooks to that ckt/outlet.

In a self-contained manufactured spa, you the end user are not taking power from where the provided ckt ends, you are hooking the ends of the ckt into a spa termination point (box or cover of some sort).

In other words, you are not providing an "outlet" as defined by NEC definitions. You are only bringing the end of a ckt to the device/appliance/machine in hardwired fashion w/o using wire nuts (wire nuts are not typically found inside spas or dryers, as example).

 

[kwired]

I disagree.

A outlet is where the end user takes power from, like adding a jbox to where a ckt terminates and then a microwave or receptacle hooks to that ckt/outlet.

In a self-contained manufactured spa, you the end user are not taking power from where the provided ckt ends, you are hooking the ends of the ckt into a spa termination point (box or cover of some sort).

In other words, you are not providing an "outlet" as defined by NEC definitions. You are only bringing the end of a ckt to the device/appliance/machine in hardwired fashion w/o using wire nuts (wire nuts are not typically found inside spas or dryers, as example).

Somewhere/somehow you must transition from premises wiring to utilization equipment.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Somewhere/somehow you must transition from premises wiring to utilization equipment.

If the spa comes with a 12ft whip pre-installed to the spa, and the jbox-ckt for the whip is 10.5ft away, and the spa edge is 3ft from pool edge, are both ends of the spa whip an "outlet". Is the pre-installed spa whip "premise" wiring?

 

[kwired]

If the spa comes with a 12ft whip pre-installed to the spa, and the jbox-ckt for the whip is 10.5ft away, and the spa edge is 3ft from pool edge, are both ends of the spa whip an "outlet". Is the pre-installed spa whip "premise" wiring?

I did say "Exactly where that outlet is located is something that can be debated in no less then 300 posts here" for a reason.

It has happened on this topic before. Somewhere there is an "outlet" I don't want to say where as there are about 100 other locations that will be brought up that should be the outlet location.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I did say "Exactly where that outlet is located is something that can be debated in no less then 300 posts here" for a reason.

It has happened on this topic before. Somewhere there is an "outlet" I don't want to say where as there are about 100 other locations that will be brought up that should be the outlet location.

I agree with you. Although i dont agree with the NEC on lots of verbiage, this seems to be another. 680.22D is a tad too vague IMHO.

If it's really an issue for the AHJ then just install a whip that can reach a jbox ("outlet") that is more than 10ft away. That is very silly as a workaround for the AHJ to say "ok" because the wires in the tub still terminate at exact same location, etc.

 

[growler]

Nothing really clear about art 680.22 when it comes to a self contained hot tub near the edge of an inground pool. AHJ cited 680.22(D) which would be 10’. He said the equipment in the hot tub, motors, controller etc. But when I did some more research examples given were fire alarms, communications and low volt stuff. Didn’t do or sell the job yet just want some insight.

"AHJ" the Authority having jurisdiction. The key word here is authority.

Is this the real AHJ or just an inspector? It may be possible to talk to his/her boss if this is just an inspector but if it's the real power of the jurisdiction that'a a problem.

Years ago I did install a hot tub on a deck that surrounded an above ground pool and I think it was closer than 10 feet and didn't have a problem. I don't remember the code cycle but I do remember the inspector was one of the toughest around.

 

[Poweranytime]

Great debate and insights. This inspector has left and the job was completed and passed I did discuss the new inspector which actually worked for a company that did lots of pool work prior to becoming inspector and he didn't see it the same way as the last inspector