Series Ratings VS Current Limiting Fuses & Breakers

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Is using a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse ahead of a lower AIC rated breaker considered series rating? Or as series rating only when using a tested combination which works on the concept that the downstream breaker won’t open until after the upstream breaker with higher fault current opens?
 
Tested combination. The idea is both breakers will trip magnetically and the fault current will be taken care of by the upstream breaker.
 
It used to be the case that a current limiting fuse used upstream of a breaker was thought to provide improved interrupting capability. And the likelihood is that it probably helps.

But the 'dynamic impedance' of a circuit breaker (the fact that it is opening a circuit) means that it sees more of the stresses of a fault then a passive conductor protected by a current limiting fuse.

So only tested combinations are permitted. These could be breaker-breaker or fuse-breaker, but the must be tested series rated combinations.

Jon
 
Tested combination. The idea is both breakers will trip magnetically and the fault current will be taken care of by the upstream breaker.
So only tested combinations are permitted. These could be breaker-breaker or fuse-breaker, but the must be tested series rated combinations.

Incorrect. For existing installations under engineering supervision it doesn't have to be a tested combination. The calculation approach is to provide upstream protection that functions in concert with the existing protective devices to safely open the circuit under fault conditions. This is generally a field-engineered solution employed to avoid having to replace all equipment when an increase in AFC causes existing equipment to be underrated.

Is using a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse ahead of a lower AIC rated breaker considered series rating? Or as series rating only when using a tested combination which works on the concept that the downstream breaker won’t open until after the upstream breaker with higher fault current opens?
Compatibility with series rated systems will in all likelihood be limited to circuit breakers that (1) remain closed during the interruption period of the fully rated OCPD installed on their line side and (2) have an interrupting rating that is not less than the let-through current of an upstream protective device (such as a current-limiting fuse).
 
Compatibility with series rated systems will in all likelihood be limited to circuit breakers that (1) remain closed during the interruption period of the fully rated OCPD installed on their line side and (2) have an interrupting rating that is not less than the let-through current of an upstream protective device (such as a current-limiting fuse).

What I’m trying to understand is does the use of a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse consist of a series rating application? If such is basically an application where you have added basically a resistance to the circuit that reduces the available fault current on a downstream device, isn’t that just the same as the impedance of a conductor? The impedance of conductors reduces the available fault current and calculating this and specifying breakers according to it is not considered a series rated application. So is a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse upstream really a series rated application? I have difficulty concluding it is based on 240.86 and I’m not aware of any other rules that are applicable.
 
So is a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse upstream really a series rated application? I have difficulty concluding it is based on 240.86 and I’m not aware of any other rules that are applicable.
Yes. As soon as you have two overcurrent protective devices in series, you need to be concerned about Series Ratings. For circuits with an appreciable amount of impedance it is likely the downstream equipment is fully rated for the available fault current.
 
What I’m trying to understand is does the use of a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse consist of a series rating application? If such is basically an application where you have added basically a resistance to the circuit that reduces the available fault current on a downstream device, isn’t that just the same as the impedance of a conductor? The impedance of conductors reduces the available fault current and calculating this and specifying breakers according to it is not considered a series rated application. So is a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse upstream really a series rated application? I have difficulty concluding it is based on 240.86 and I’m not aware of any other rules that are applicable.
Despite their name, you essentially CANNOT use CL fuses to lower the available fault current of a downstream device for AIC purposes. You may be able to use a CL fuse to lower the available fault current for SCCR purposes.
 
Incorrect. For existing installations under engineering supervision it doesn't have to be a tested combination. The calculation approach is to provide upstream protection that functions in concert with the existing protective devices to safely open the circuit under fault conditions. This is generally a field-engineered solution employed to avoid having to replace all equipment when an increase in AFC causes existing equipment to be underrated.
How common is it for an engineer to approve a engineered series combination? I have heard on this forum in the past that pretty much no engineer will actually approve such a thing.
 
Yes. As soon as you have two overcurrent protective devices in series, you need to be concerned about Series Ratings. For circuits with an appreciable amount of impedance it is likely the downstream equipment is fully rated for the available fault current.

Can it be demonstrated in the NEC where it says that series readings concerns are applicable where you’ve used a current Lebanon breaker or current in breaker or currentcan it be demonstrated in the NEC where it says that series readings concerns are applicable where you’ve used a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuses? 240.86 simply says that it applies when a breaker is used on a circuit having an available fault current higher than the marked interrupting rating and is connected to the load side of an over current device having a higher rating.

If that’s the case how is it argued that the current limiting fuse or breaker doesn’t reduce the available fault current in the same way that the longer length of conductor would?
 
If such is basically an application where you have added basically a resistance to the circuit that reduces the available fault current on a downstream device, isn’t that just the same as the impedance of a conductor?

The key point is that a current limiting fuse is _not_ a constant resistance added to the circuit.

It is a dynamic impedance which starts out low, but which increases very rapidly in the event of excessive current.

Jon
 
If that’s the case how is it argued that the current limiting fuse or breaker doesn’t reduce the available fault current in the same way that the longer length of conductor would?
I have argued the same thing: why can't a CL fuse be considered to lower the avaliable fault current just like a transformer or conductor would? I think the wording in 240.86 could be improved. And/or perhaps we need a definition for "available fault current" that would explicitly prohibit using a CL fuse to reduce the AFC.

Basically, the problem is no one has been able to accurately compute or model the behavior of two OCPD's in series so actually testing the combination is really the only way to see if it works.
 
I have argued the same thing: why can't a CL fuse be considered to lower the avaliable fault current just like a transformer or conductor would?
Because it doesn't.

This topic came up during a fuse course I took at Bussmann in the early 90s. Effectively, they said the performance and construction of molded case circuit beakers can prevent the fault current through a fuse from reaching it's current limiting point.
 
Compatibility with series rated systems will in all likelihood be limited to circuit breakers that (1) remain closed during the interruption period of the fully rated OCPD installed on their line side and (2) have an interrupting rating that is not less than the let-through current of an upstream protective device (such as a current-limiting fuse).
It would be extremely rare, if at all possible, to find a molded case circuit breaker that meets these requirements. About the only place to use this section is with the older 'iron frame' draw out switchgear breakers.
 
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Because it doesn't.

This topic came up during a fuse course I took at Bussmann in the early 90s. Effectively, they said the performance and construction of molded case circuit beakers can prevent the fault current through a fuse from reaching it's current limiting point.
I know it doesn't, the point I was trying to make is I think the wording of the NEC should be improved a bit to clarify that.

And there is some ambiguity when it comes to using CL fuse for SCCR purposes. We had a long discussion on that recently.
 
Incorrect. For existing installations under engineering supervision it doesn't have to be a tested combination. The calculation approach is to provide upstream protection that functions in concert with the existing protective devices to safely open the circuit under fault conditions. This is generally a field-engineered solution employed to avoid having to replace all equipment when an increase in AFC causes existing equipment to be underrated.


Compatibility with series rated systems will in all likelihood be limited to circuit breakers that (1) remain closed during the interruption period of the fully rated OCPD installed on their line side and (2) have an interrupting rating that is not less than the let-through current of an upstream protective device (such as a current-limiting fuse).

Not true either. At one time there was a calculation (up, over, down) but it turns out to be faulty and no longer accepted. The theory is correct but in practical reality because of dynamic impedance the only practical way to predict it is by actually testing a combination.

But let’s be clear this is when the TCCs overlap. If they don’t overlap, have at it. Of course the only region anyone is interested in is the short circuit/instantaneous region.

CL fuses are a fine way to provide breaker protection at higher AIC. There are tons of breakers out there with backing fuses when you get into 65 kA and above ratings. But once again, we can’t predict timing so again must be a tested combination.

And of course there is the old approach. We document the fact that a miscoordination does or may exist and move on.

As far as the SCCR vs AIC argument this is missing the point. Say I place the downstream equipment in a black box. You can’t look inside but I can label the box for you with an SCCR. So whatever you do the available fault current has to be less. A CL device allows you to do exactly that, at least with mild decreases. Now when I open the box and let you look inside, there’s a breaker in there. Now let’s just go ahead and put your external device in the box. Now we raised SCCR. It’s not AIC but has the same effect.

The problem is coordination may or may not work though. And that may or may not be important. If there are no branches in the circuits…true “series” rating, I’d argue that coordination is no critical. It’s a much different story though if we have say a fused disconnect feeding a panel board. We don’t need fuses popping and killing all the loads every time something like a motor burns up. That’s the point of series ratings along with the SCCR/AIC argument,

But I’ve tried to solve this for the 5-10 kA equipment (cheap IEC stuff) before with fused disconnects. The answer every time turns into adding a small isolation transformer where eventually magnetic saturation limits current. Going from 40 kA to 35 kA is reasonable and doable. Going from 40 kA to 10 kA with current limiting, series rated or not, isn’t going to work.
 
What I’m trying to understand is does the use of a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse consist of a series rating application?
Yes it can.

If such is basically an application where you have added basically a resistance to the circuit that reduces the available fault current on a downstream device, isn’t that just the same as the impedance of a conductor?
No. Conductors present a constant static impedance whereas breakers/fuses present dynamic impedance.

The impedance of conductors reduces the available fault current and calculating this and specifying breakers according to it is not considered a series rated application.
A series rated systems is about the interrupting rating of two overcurrent devices (not conductors). Yes conductors lower the fault current, but they aren’t part of the rating system.

So is a current limiting breaker or current limiting fuse upstream really a series rated application? I have difficulty concluding it is based on 240.86 and I’m not aware of any other rules that are applicable.
Yes. Calculations under engineering supervision basically allow the engineer to do whatever they want because they are putting their license and insurance on the line. Read the commentary in the NEC.
 
Yes. As soon as you have two overcurrent protective devices in series, you need to be concerned about Series Ratings. For circuits with an appreciable amount of impedance it is likely the downstream equipment is fully rated for the available fault current.

Agreed. With an appreciable amount of cable impedance, the downstream equipment may be fully rated for the prospective fault current and there would never be a need to even apply series ratings.
 
Despite their name, you essentially CANNOT use CL fuses to lower the available fault current of a downstream device for AIC purposes. You may be able to use a CL fuse to lower the available fault current for SCCR purposes.

Huh? This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. If you lower the fault current, you lower the fault current. The SCCR is just the lower of the equipment withstand and device AIC ratings. Under engineering supervision, one could evaluate the current limiting effects of upstream fuses and make it work. It’s just a matter if the engineer wants that kind of liability instead of just recommending fully rated devices.

What do you think an integrally fused circuit breaker is? It’s a series rated system that uses current limiting fuses to increase the interrupting rating of the circuit breaker.
 
How common is it for an engineer to approve a engineered series combination? I have heard on this forum in the past that pretty much no engineer will actually approve such a thing.

It’s not a common thing because there are other limiting factors like the equipment withstand rating that could be in violation.

I recently did a job where a series rating would have been useful had it not been for an unknown bus bracing rating of switchgear. The fault current was about 90-kA. The circuit breakers by themselves were rated 65-kA, but these were integrally fused so a rating of 100-kA could be utilized (technically it could have been 200-kA but these were unlisted tested combinations - a case where engineering supervision could potentially come into play to justify a higher rating). The problem was the tie was the only circuit breaker not integrally fused so this gear would of had to have been assigned the lowest device rating in the switchgear assembly of 65-kA no matter what.
 
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