Serious, valid consideration of the 'ground up or down' issue.

[K8MHZ]

I saw this yesterday in my doctor's examining room.


View attachment 6081

This is at receptacle level, about 20 inches off the floor. Because of the ground being up, the device is upside down. It can't be read or operated unless the person trying gets down on the floor and looks upside down at it.

This device is a mini UPS intended to keep small loads operational for the few seconds it takes for the generator to come on when power to the building is lost. This provides for a seamless transfer and one is on EVERY computer and LAN device in the building.

I have one of the infamous Kil-a-watt meters. It, too, would be upside down if used in a receptacle with the ground 'up'.

I have several emergency LED night lights. Not only do they have controls that would be upside down, but the when the power drops, the back up LEDs would be pointing the wrong way if mounted in a 'ground up' receptacle.

All my little plug in receptacle testers are oriented to be read from a 'ground down' receptacle. Some have all the light codes on the top, making them impossible to read in a 'ground up' receptacle.

I think, now that we are seeing a proliferation of receptacle mounted devices that have read outs and controls, we have transcended from 'it doesn't matter' to a point of having to seriously consider the ramifications of mounting receptacles with the ground on the top.

The cat has already been let out of the manufacturer's bag and they have set somewhat of a standard for receptacle orientation, and that is having the ground 'down'. I have never seen any receptacle mounted device or tester with a ground that was made to be used with the ground on the top.

We, the folks on the installation end of things, dropped the ball and because of our lack of setting an installation standard, many receptacles, especially in health care facilities, will render receptacle mounted devices very difficult to use.

A note to the moderators:

I know that this subject has been taboo here for years. I am not trying to start a debate and this certainly is not a troll. The operation of the UPS in my picture is crucial and failure to be able to read the display and operate the controls may cause loss of important patient information. Thus, yesterday's discovery on my part brings an entirely new light on the 'debate' due to devices that have only been present in proliferation for a few years.

The purpose of this thread is to inform people that the orientation of the devices are not compatible to the orientation of the receptacles when mounted with the ground up. Customers requesting 'ground up' orientation should at least be informed of the orientation standard set by the device manufacturers.

I also think that designers need to consider what they are designing and where it will be used. The only place I have seen the mini UPS devices have been in health care facilities, all mounted upside down. Devices that are likely to be used in health care facilities should be offered with both orientations, IMHO.

 

[badabing]

I would like to add that I agree with this. I work for an assisted living facility and we recently remodeled some of the rooms (moved a few outlets in positioning, but replaced all devices with new hospital grade ones). When the remodeling was over, the state officials came in and (not sure if he was just being a wiseass) "Oh, your plugs are upside down" because they were ground down position. I didn't really want to say anything about it at that point. But all of the devices that we plug into those outlets like wallwarts and such have the ground prong on the bottom. If i was to install the outlets the way he wanted, then those transformers would be hanging off of the wall with the extra weight in the wrong position with the wire coming off the top and create more of a hazard. Just adding that I am glad there isn't a code for the orientation of the outlet. If later on we were to get new equipment that was created with the ground on the top, then we would be able to turn the outlets around. Either way we install them, they should be installed to suit our facilities needs.

 

[iwire]

It would be a great argument .... if in fact the manufactures had a standard they followed, but they don't.

 

[hurk27]

It would be a great argument .... if in fact the manufactures had a standard they followed, but they don't.

I agree, just the other day I helped a friend fix a gas dryer that had the right angle plug with the ground opposite from the cord, but the washer had the ground the same side of the cord, most I have seen have the correct right angle plug on the washer with the ground on the same side of the cord, and the dryer has a straight plug in, but not this one I think it was a maytag, I have seen this with refrigerator's also, no common ground (pun intended)

 

[K8MHZ]

It would be a great argument .... if in fact the manufactures had a standard they followed, but they don't.

You may be correct that they don't have a written standard, but they do have an implied one. Show me ONE three prong receptacle mounted device that is made to be used with the ground on the top.

Also, some appliances have cords made to hug the wall with the cords exiting the plug down instead of out, and all of the ones I have seen are made to be used 'ground down'.

As I mentioned, this is not fodder for an argument. This is totally observational and I feel it brings pertinence to a design and installation consideration that is relatively new to our trade.

Every argument I have seen about receptacle orientation has revolved around safety and was pretty much a matter of opinion with no proven substance either way. I really never cared, thus my choice of an avatar. This is different. The matter of devices designed around one particular orientation is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.

 

[Little Bill]

I won't state my preference on the orientation, but I've seen some GFCI receps that the writing on the test/reset buttons can only be read from a ground up position. I use P&S and they have the writing in both directions so you could mount it in either direction. Now if all mfgrs. would follow suit.:happyyes:

 

[K8MHZ]

I agree, just the other day I helped a friend fix a gas dryer that had the right angle plug with the ground opposite from the cord, but the washer had the ground the same side of the cord, most I have seen have the correct right angle plug on the washer with the ground on the same side of the cord, and the dryer has a straight plug in, but not this one I think it was a maytag, I have seen this with refrigerator's also, no common ground (pun intended)

The orientation of the cord may be a PITA, but it really has no effect on the operation of the appliance using it as the cord doesn't determine the orientation of the appliance. Still, I have seen only 'ground down' right angle plugs rather than the opposite, but know they both exist.

It's the receptacle mounted devices that make this much more of an issue to consider.

 

[K8MHZ]

I won't state my preference on the orientation, but I've seen some GFCI receps that the writing on the test/reset buttons can only be read from a ground up position. I use P&S and they have the writing in both directions so you could mount it in either direction. Now if all mfgrs. would follow suit.:happyyes:

I know the buttons are now both ways. I seem to remember the old ones having the writing only one way, but don't remember which way. I'll have to dig around and try to find an old one to look at.

 

[kwired]

Whoever put that device there should have turned the receptacle upside down from the way it originally was.

What if it were mounted horizontally?

I have an idea, lets abandon the 5-15 and 5-16 configuration and come up with a concentrical design that is the same to the user no matter which way it is actually mounted. We already have some plugs used for audio and video that we could just change the size and other details so they are not interchangable.

 

[K8MHZ]

Whoever put that device there should have turned the receptacle upside down from the way it originally was.

What if it were mounted horizontally?

I have an idea, lets abandon the 5-15 and 5-16 configuration and come up with a concentrical design that is the same to the user no matter which way it is actually mounted. We already have some plugs used for audio and video that we could just change the size and other details so they are not interchangable.

The person that plugged the UPS in was likely not licensed to do electrical work. Also, that would have required shutting off crucial circuits.

I do like the idea of a concentric design, but I fear it's too late for that.

 

[K8MHZ]

I just did a quick survey of my own home.

I found two right angle plugs, one on a fridge, one on an A/C unit. Both were ground down. I found a short extension cord with a right angle plug. Ground down. I found two Belkin six spot surge protectors, receptacle mounted, both with the grounds down. All the 2 wire wall warts with polarized plugs were made with the cord going down with the neutral on the left (as looking at the receptacle,ie, ground down).

I'll bet I could find close to twenty orientation specific devices or cords with the ground down and not a single one with the ground up if I took a complete survey here.

So far, not a single 'ground up' device.

FWIW, I pointed this out to my doctor when I was there and we ended up talking about it for ten minutes or so. He was not real impressed with the design, to say the least.

He wanted to know if I got a picture of it and if I was going to post it on the Internet.

When I said yes to both, he smiled a bit......as I was leaving I heard him say, 'Now you've got me looking at all the receptacles!'

I responded that I knew how he felt and that I looked at not only every receptacle, but everything electric and what a terrible affliction it was.

 

[kwired]

The person that plugged the UPS in was likely not licensed to do electrical work. Also, that would have required shutting off crucial circuits.

I do like the idea of a concentric design, but I fear it's too late for that.

But that would not stop the maintenance man from replacing the receptacle if it needed replaced, so why can't he turn it over?:happyyes:

 

[K8MHZ]

But that would not stop the maintenance man from replacing the receptacle if it needed replaced, so why can't he turn it over?:happyyes:

Because shutting down the circuit would be required and shutting down a data / LAN node is a bad, bad thing, thus the need for dozens of tiny UPS devices. The LAN they now use is new. When the hospital took over the doctor's offices they changed all the LANs to the type the hospital uses and interconnected them. I am sure that the UPS was just plugged in along with the new routers and no electricians were even considered.

Also, when any electrical work is done, real electricians are called in at my doctor's office. I have discussed this with them. Also, my sister is in management for the hospital that the doctor is affiliated with and I know how electrical work is done there. Luckily, it's done right by licensed electricians. I even know some of them.

I am sure that the plug and play aspect of the mini UPS units was a big plus when it came time to sell them. Having to flip the receptacles over would have increased the installation time of the entire system by at least an order of magnitude and it probably wasn't realized until the beginning of the project and not doable in the amount of time they had.

 

[K8MHZ]

Doesn't this look like a skull?

View attachment 6082

Cooper is my step dad and brother's last name.

If I was good with Photoshop, I would have put some cross bones under the pic.

So, add to my cords, protectors and devices, one human skull shaped adapter emblazoned with my (kind of) family name.....all with the ground down.

 

[mivey]

The wall-warts were certainly offset to begin with so we could have access to the center screw for grounding. It is interesting that they off-set them one way (at least I don't recall the old ones being designed for ground up).

A modern version of the same device issue except for a different reason: The heavy wall-warts with the screw for support. They would not do well ground up.

Pics here:
http://www.gatesnfences.com/Transfo...former-Converters-PowerSurge-PowerSupply.html

 

[socalelect]

ive heard the arguement both ways i prefer ground down except with 6-50R's due to the fact of the way the cord exits the cap

it seems to me with the ground up the u shaped terminal is going to take alot of stress when the cord is stepped on and will end up breaking like they always do

my grandparents house has all the receps ground up , my grandfather did most of the rewire and the trim out he is a ex navy electrician i was helping him and he went behind me and turned them all ground up his reasoning was if someone drops something of it with ground down ( exapmle a butterknife) and it was partially hanging out of the recep it would cause a short but with the ground up well it would hit the ground pin and fall to the floor and that would be that

 

[mivey]

it seems to me with the ground up the u shaped terminal is going to take alot of stress when the cord is stepped on...

I think the intent here is to limit the discussion to issues caused by the way utilization equipment is manufactured that favors one over the other and can impact the function of said device.

The other topics have been beat to death and is one of the reasons threads with those angles are usually not allowed anymore.

 

[socalelect]

I think the intent here is to limit the discussion to issues caused by the way utilization equipment is manufactured that favors one over the other and can impact the function of said device.

The other topics have been beat to death and is one of the reasons threads with those angles are usually not allowed anymore.

how does that not affect the operation of said device , example ground up someone steps on cord close to the recep and pulls "down" on it therefore giving a good yank on the ground pin which in my exp is usually not firmly attached in molded caps , then breaking the pin off and losing the egc connection

 

[ActionDave]

how does that not affect the operation of said device , example ground up someone steps on cord close to the recep and pulls "down" on it therefore giving a good yank on the ground pin which in my exp is usually not firmly attached in molded caps , then breaking the pin off and losing the egc connection

That is not what is being discussed in this case.

Here is a link where it is....http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=83435&p=649512#post649512

 

[iwire]

I think, now that we are seeing a proliferation of receptacle mounted devices that have read outs and controls, we have transcended from 'it doesn't matter' to a point of having to seriously consider the ramifications of mounting receptacles with the ground on the top.

Many areas mount them like this.

IMO design should not be an NEC issue.