Service AIC Formula, how to calc?

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kingpb said:
Based on your assumptions yes it would reduce it. But, you are not comparing Apples to Apples.

If the infinite bus is at the service transformer, then the reduction is already considerd, and your saying it's still an infifnite bus. In the second part of your post, you are taking the infinite bus to be somewhere out on the system, and deducting the impedance to get it to the transformer.

Thusly, you are comparing values at two different locations, the first part at the serving transformer, the second part somewhere out on the system.
The "infinite bus" is only used to calculate the available short circuit current at the secondary side of a transformer. There are no other reductions or calculations involved. After you have the "infinite bus" rating for the seconday side, you can look at the impedance of the secondary conductors and do a calculation to find the available fault current at the load end of the conductors. Any calculations based on an "infinite bus" are worst case as there is always some limit on the current that can be supplied into the primary of the transformer. This limit imposed by the primary supply will also limit the available fault current on the secondary side.
 
kingpb said:
Based on your assumptions yes it would reduce it. But, you are not comparing Apples to Apples.

If the infinite bus is at the service transformer, then the reduction is already considerd, and your saying it's still an infifnite bus. In the second part of your post, you are taking the infinite bus to be somewhere out on the system, and deducting the impedance to get it to the transformer.

Thusly, you are comparing values at two different locations, the first part at the serving transformer, the second part somewhere out on the system.
King
Check this Bussman site. It takes you thru the method I have been trying to get across.

http://www.bussmann.com/library/docs/Edp-1.pdf
 
kingpb said:
If the infinite bus is at the service transformer, then the reduction is already considered,

It seems to me if it was reduced it could not be infinite.

I always assumed 'infinite bus at the transformer' meant that for the sake of calculations the supply assumed to have no limit.
 
iwire said:
It seems to me if it was reduced it could not be infinite.

I always assumed 'infinite bus at the transformer' meant that for the sake of calculations the supply assumed to have no limit.
You are absolutely correct. When you use the infinite bus method you assume that the utility has unlimited fault current available. We use only the transformer impedance to limit the fault. In reality the utility has a limit on the available fault current at the high side terminals of the transformer.
It is limited by the high voltage system impedance. This includes the generator Z, transmission line Z, the substation Z and the distribution line Z.
The infinite bus method ignores these values when making the calculation
and thus you have a higher fault value.
 
iwire said:
It seems to me if it was reduced it could not be infinite.

I always assumed 'infinite bus at the transformer' meant that for the sake of calculations the supply assumed to have no limit.
This is a very common assumption. However, in power system analysis it actually means that it's an ideal voltage source that maintains constant voltage magnitude, constant phase, and constant frequency. It is modeled as an infinite source behind the system equivalent impedance, which is predominantly reactance. An infinite bus can be placed/considered anywhere on a system.

For example, say I am installing new 100MVA power generation unit which is connected through a generator step-up transformer to a 230kV substation. The transformer is located 0.25mi from the substation, and we are responsible for the distribution line from the HV side of the GSU out to the substation. I contact the utility, and they say that for long-term planning purposes assume an infinite bus at the substation. What does that really mean? Well, I find out that the equipment in the substation has a short circuit rating of 21kAIC. Since the utility cannot exceed the fault level of the equipment I can safely calculate my maximum (worst case) short circuit MVA. Therefore at 230kV that equates to a maximum of 8366MVA. That MVA number is a combination of the combined system impedance at the point of interconnection and the ideal voltage source. I can then calculate the system impedance "z".

However, the line between the HV terminals of the generator step-up transformer and substation is now added to the substation impedance as series impedance. This, will end up reducing the amount of available fault current at the HV terminals of the transformer. If, the reduction is minimal, then the amount of short circuit MVA could still be high enough that it would appear to be an infinite source. Let's say we have a 100MVA transformer with z = 10%, then the short circuit MVA capability of the transformer is 1000MVA, e.g. acts as a choke.

So, if the impedance of the line doesn't drop the short circuit MVA down to 1000MVA or so, then the contribution from the substation would still appear to be an infinite source at the HV terminals of the transformer, even though it has been reduced by the transmission line. This being the case, then to determine equipment ratings on the LV side if the transformer, you can use the MVA short circuit capability of the transformer as the maximum worst case available fault current.

You could just as easily develop a scenario where the line is much longer, or theres an air core reactor used to limit fault current, and it does reduce the fault current to a level below the 1000MVA, and then it would not be an infinite source at the transformer, even though you started at the substation with an infinite source.


In regards to the bussman link, thanks anyway, but I've been doing power system studies for 16 years, and my understanding of them is far beyond the basics.
 
kingpb said:
In regards to the bussman link, thanks anyway, but I've been doing power system studies for 16 years, and my understanding of them is far beyond the basics.

Nuf said. :rolleyes:

Even though I have never done power system studies I will remain in disagreement with your personal understanding of 'infinite bus at the transformer' really means.
 
King
You got right. I was beginning to think you would never understand the complexity of this problem.
kingpb said:
For example, say I am installing new 100MVA power generation unit which is connected through a generator step-up transformer to a 230kV substation. The transformer is located 0.25mi from the substation, and we are responsible for the distribution line from the HV side of the GSU out to the substation. I contact the utility, and they say that for long-term planning purposes assume an infinite bus at the substation. What does that really mean? Well, I find out that the equipment in the substation has a short circuit rating of 21kAIC. Since the utility cannot exceed the fault level of the equipment I can safely calculate my maximum (worst case) short circuit MVA. Therefore at 230kV that equates to a maximum of 8366MVA. That MVA number is a combination of the combined system impedance at the point of interconnection and the ideal voltage source. I can then calculate the system impedance "z".

This is exactly what I have been saying. You add the system impedance of the circuits in series. The only difference is that usually the utilities have said assume the infinite bus at primary of the customers transformer.

However, the line between the HV terminals of the generator step-up transformer and substation is now added to the substation impedance as series impedance. This, will end up reducing the amount of available fault current at the HV terminals of the transformer. If, the reduction is minimal, then the amount of short circuit MVA could still be high enough that it would appear to be an infinite source. Let's say we have a 100MVA transformer with z = 10%, then the short circuit MVA capability of the transformer is 1000MVA, e.g. acts as a choke.
Exactly correct. I think you have got it.

So, if the impedance of the line doesn't drop the short circuit MVA down to 1000MVA or so, then the contribution from the substation would still appear to be an infinite source at the HV terminals of the transformer, even though it has been reduced by the transmission line. This being the case, then to determine equipment ratings on the LV side if the transformer, you can use the MVA short circuit capability of the transformer as the maximum worst case available fault current.
Absolutely true. However distribution substations rarely are able to produce
1000 mva fault. At 12.47 kv the fault would have to be 46000 amps. Never seen a distribution system that could do that.

You could just as easily develop a scenario where the line is much longer, or theres an air core reactor used to limit fault current, and it does reduce the fault current to a level below the 1000MVA, and then it would not be an infinite source at the transformer, even though you started at the substation with an infinite source.
I think you finally got it. In fact I believe 100 mva would do the trick

In regards to the bussman link, thanks anyway, but I've been doing power system studies for 16 years, and my understanding of them is far beyond the basics.
That's ashamed. Usually when a person reaches the point where they think they know it all, they open there mouth an speak and then everyone knows its not true.
 
Fulthrotl said:
i have to research a service upgrade.... specs are:

480 V. 3 ph. 4 w. wye service, 1200 amps.

seat of the pants tells me that 40,000 AIC is
probably sufficient, but how do i calculate it
exactly?

and of those among you who do this often,
do you have a software program that you
recommend doing this with?

thanks for any help you may be able to provide.


Randy

Check into using a fused service disconnect, then you wont have to worry about it.
Are you responsible for the design?
 
Jrannis,
How will a fused switch make it so that he doesn't have to worry about it?
Unless everything down stream has a UL listed series rating with that upstream 1200A fuse, he's got the same concern throughout the building.
 
ron said:
Jrannis,
How will a fused switch make it so that he doesn't have to worry about it?
Unless everything down stream has a UL listed series rating with that upstream 1200A fuse, he's got the same concern throughout the building.

Usually fuses are good for 100,000 to 200,000 kaic
 
I agree. Fuses that may be good for 100k-200kA but do not "help" anything downstream withstand or interrupt the fault current (code wise) unless it is series rated/tested as an assembly with the fuses.
 
ron said:
I agree. Fuses that may be good for 100k-200kA but do not "help" anything downstream withstand or interrupt the fault current (code wise) unless it is series rated/tested as an assembly with the fuses.

Ok, they why would he be "playing it safe" using a 65k breaker.
My point is that fuses, by design, offer a great amount of short circuit rating.

Ok to use 65 kaic at a residence but, if you use 10 kaic, you have to calculate the fault current.

Look to the fuse in your design. Might save you some bucks.
 
bob said:
That's ashamed. Usually when a person reaches the point where they think they know it all, they open there mouth an speak and then everyone knows its not true.
What? :confused:

BTW: That would be "a shame"

Reread what I wrote, because I wasn't saying I wouldn't be interested in anything new, simply pointing out that the bussman document is very basic, e.g. for beginners so to speak.

In fairness, perhaps you may be interested in reading and understanding the "MVA Method" by Moon H. Yuen.
 
Their are a couple of software programs available on the net.
most have a fee. Some will give you a 30 day free trial. You simply
plug in utility fault current at transformer/ lenght of wire feed
to service/ size of wire and it quotes it for you. ronball
p.s . search net for fault current calculators.
 
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