Service change-out and 2-prong to 3-prong receps? Options?

[sw_ross]

NoDak just adopted the 2017...

A panel change-out hasn't changed significantly... But this house has predominately 2-prong outlets that they want upgraded to grounding type receps.

As I understand it that change-out now has to be gfci and AFCI protected (406.4D)?

I'm looking at what my options are..
1) AFCI breaker, then gfci the receptacle circuits (if I can find the head of circuit)( if there is one!)
2) combination gfci/AFCI receps at head of each circuit (see #1)
3) gfci breaker, then AFCI receps...

How are others handling this situation?
TIA!

 

[kwired]

NoDak just adopted the 2017...

A panel change-out hasn't changed significantly... But this house has predominately 2-prong outlets that they want upgraded to grounding type receps.

As I understand it that change-out now has to be gfci and AFCI protected (406.4D)?

I'm looking at what my options are..
1) AFCI breaker, then gfci the receptacle circuits (if I can find the head of circuit)( if there is one!)
2) combination gfci/AFCI receps at head of each circuit (see #1)
3) gfci breaker, then AFCI receps...

How are others handling this situation?
TIA!

Each situation can be approached differently. Even different approach on each circuit at the same site depending on conditions.

Dual function (AFCI/GFCI) circuit breakers are also an option. With Homeline the DF's are not much more then an AFCI. If you bought an AFCI breaker and a GFCI receptacle you spent more then you would on a DF, plus you didn't have spend time finding the first outlet on the circuit, or fight with a device box that doesn't have sufficient or even practical volume for a GFCI or AFCI receptacle.

 

[Coppersmith]

I had a situation where I needed to add 4 GFCI's to a house with very small j-boxes. Instead, I attached two deep 4-square boxes under the panel and put two blank face GFCI's in each box. I ran the breaker to the GFCI line side and attached the circuit to the load side of the GFCI. I'm not sure it's 100% code compliant to run out of the panel and then back in, but it solved the problem.

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure it's 100% code compliant to run out of the panel and then back in, but it solved the problem.

NEC does not prohibit that.

Many shirt pocket rules out there that do and maybe some local amendments with not so good substantiation for it.

 

[Unbridled]

GFI/AFCI

GFI/AFCI

NoDak just adopted the 2017...

A panel change-out hasn't changed significantly... But this house has predominately 2-prong outlets that they want upgraded to grounding type receps.

As I understand it that change-out now has to be gfci and AFCI protected (406.4D)?

I'm looking at what my options are..
1) AFCI breaker, then gfci the receptacle circuits (if I can find the head of circuit)( if there is one!)
2) combination gfci/AFCI receps at head of each circuit (see #1)
3) gfci breaker, then AFCI receps...

How are others handling this situation?
TIA!

Does the customer want 3 wire outlets? Or are you installing just per minimum code?

 

[sw_ross]

Thanks!

Thanks!

I like the idea of dual function breakers!

Also like option of putting a dead front gfci by panel.

Those small metal handy boxes are a bear to get a gfci Recep to fit!

 

[sw_ross]

3-prong outlets

3-prong outlets

The HO wants all 2-prongs changed out to 3-prong (grounding) type receps.
This is in addition to the service change-out.

 

[JFletcher]

If it's a new circuit, then breakers vs receps. Existing, if the panel can accept AFCI/GFCI breakers, I'd rather go that route than trace to where the 1st receptacle is and change that to a CAFCI recep, especially if the boxes are smallish/near fill.

Any 3 wire receps on a 2 wire circuit and GFCI protection need "No equipment ground" and "GFCI protected" stickers. and while you can't technically plug in some things into a 3 wire recep w/no ground (frig, washing machine, etc.), short of pulling new grounded wire that's the next best option.

If you GFCI everything at the panel. you could find a ton of faults or neutrals of diff circuits tied together causing trips; make sure the HO is aware and that troubleshooting such things is not part of a panel/device changeout (unless your bid includes some time to find and correct such things).

 

[Unbridled]

The HO wants all 2-prongs changed out to 3-prong (grounding) type receps.
This is in addition to the service change-out.

Seems every one in this forum has circumvented the customers request for 3 wire duplex's through-out.
Yes, all the previous post have good suggestions, however none of them tackle the issue of 3 wire receptacles past the 1st one in the circuit.
Is there a reason that an installation per the above posts, in regards to AFCI and GFCI protection in the panel ( or 1st device), can't be supplemented by simply installing 3 wire duplex outlets on the remainder of the project?

 

[JFletcher]

Seems every one in this forum has circumvented the customers request for 3 wire duplex's through-out.
Yes, all the previous post have good suggestions, however none of them tackle the issue of 3 wire receptacles past the 1st one in the circuit.
Is there a reason that an installation per the above posts, in regards to AFCI and GFCI protection in the panel ( or 1st device), can't be supplemented by simply installing 3 wire duplex outlets on the remainder of the project?

The only way to wire it completely by code in many places is tear all the original wiring out and start over. I have no problem plugging a frig or washing machine into a 2 wire GFCI or GFCI protected 3 prong recep.

 

[sw_ross]

Homeline DF breaker

Homeline DF breaker

I think I'll propose to the HO the idea of using the DF breakers (~$34) with the contingency that there might be some troubleshooting involved if there happens to be some crossed over neutrals, causing some nuisance tripping.

That way I'll be able to have a fair idea of how long it will take to do the panel change-out, and change-out the receps for estimating purpose.

The only unknown would be troubleshooting nuisance tripping.
I'm going to assume that there will be some nuisance tripping, so I'll add some time for that.

The other option is to use AFCI breaker, then take the circuits apart to identify the head of the circuit and install a gfci Recep there. But that would still involve troubleshooting for nuisance tripping an AFCI breaker.

Thanks all for input!

 

[kwired]

I think I'll propose to the HO the idea of using the DF breakers (~$34) with the contingency that there might be some troubleshooting involved if there happens to be some crossed over neutrals, causing some nuisance tripping.

That way I'll be able to have a fair idea of how long it will take to do the panel change-out, and change-out the receps for estimating purpose.

The only unknown would be troubleshooting nuisance tripping.
I'm going to assume that there will be some nuisance tripping, so I'll add some time for that.

The other option is to use AFCI breaker, then take the circuits apart to identify the head of the circuit and install a gfci Recep there. But that would still involve troubleshooting for nuisance tripping an AFCI breaker.

Thanks all for input!

The Homeline AFCI breaker will still trip if there is ground faults or crossed neutrals in branch wiring, etc. It may not trip immediately like a GFCI but will still see the fault condition at some point and cause tripping.

 

[Unbridled]

Seems every one in this forum has circumvented the customers request for 3 wire duplex's through-out.
Yes, all the previous post have good suggestions, however none of them tackle the issue of 3 wire receptacles past the 1st one in the circuit.


Is there a reason that an installation per the above posts, in regards to AFCI and GFCI protection in the panel ( or 1st device), can't be supplemented by simply installing 3 wire duplex outlets on the remainder of the branch circuits? Can one install 3 wire duplex downstream of a GFCI C/B, or an upstream GFCI receptacle?

 

[Unbridled]

The only way to wire it completely by code in many places is tear all the original wiring out and start over. I have no problem plugging a frig or washing machine into a 2 wire GFCI or GFCI protected 3 prong recep.

Why can't the contractor install 3 wire outlets in place of 2 wire outlets through-out, as long as there is a sticker indicting no EGC on each outlet AND GFCI/AFCI protection up stream and keep to tho wire conductors in the wall through-out?
.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Why can't the contractor install 3 wire outlets in place of 2 wire outlets through-out, as long as there is a sticker indicting no EGC on each outlet AND GFCI/AFCI protection up stream and keep to tho wire conductors in the wall through-out?
.

isnt that the same as leaving a functional nema 1's and just use gf/af breaker?
any 3prong cap cord can use the 3:2 adapter.

why bother to swap nema 1's to 5's if all you gonna do is slap on a sticker that will fall off later anyways?

 

[JFletcher]

Why can't the contractor install 3 wire outlets in place of 2 wire outlets through-out, as long as there is a sticker indicting no EGC on each outlet AND GFCI/AFCI protection up stream and keep to tho wire conductors in the wall through-out?
.

He can tho 250.114 prevents some things like frigs and washers from being connected to a 2 wire circuit.

 

[bullheimer]

code compliant is one thing. a whole house re-wire is another, and maybe somewhere in between you can run new wire under the house and hit all the recepts near the ground and skip lights and kit if you can.

i have used the dual function breakers mostly if i can and there's no 3 wire systems. you can get nuisance tripping tho but you will usally find the cause when you put new outlers in. i save all the little stickers from the gfi and afi boxes so that if i do a house i have enough labels. yes breakers if pos, as small boxes blow chunks, and not only that an old enough house and you wont have any outlets daisy chained anyway! 2 pole breakers arnt that much more than two single poles anyway either. breakers also save time in trying to find the beginning of a circuit. only way to bid it: breakers all the way. but so much harder to trouble shoot and old crappy wiring jobs seem to have issues.