Service Entrance Conductors
- Thread starter tomo
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
The grounded conductor is used to "ground" electrical equipment on the line side of the service disconnect. There is no need for an EGC with the service conductors.
Don
The grounded conductor is used to "ground" electrical equipment on the line side of the service disconnect. There is no need for an EGC with the service conductors.
Don
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
In Europe sometimes there is a 4th grounding conductor run with the service. So they do feel a need.
Karl
In Europe sometimes there is a 4th grounding conductor run with the service. So they do feel a need.
Karl
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Tomo,
If you where to run a grounding conductor where would it connect to at the utility end?
Karl,
I would imagine in that case there is no bonding done at the service disconnect?
Working with the NEC it would be difficult to run a grounding conductor for a service, it would end up parallel to the grounded conductor.
Bob
Tomo,
If you where to run a grounding conductor where would it connect to at the utility end?
Karl,
I would imagine in that case there is no bonding done at the service disconnect?
Working with the NEC it would be difficult to run a grounding conductor for a service, it would end up parallel to the grounded conductor.
Bob
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Bob
Ditto.
Mike P.
Bob
Ditto.
Mike P.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Karl,
While I agree that a 120/240 volt, single phase, 4 wire system would be a superior system, the question asked about the 2002 NEC.
Don
Karl,
While I agree that a 120/240 volt, single phase, 4 wire system would be a superior system, the question asked about the 2002 NEC.
Don
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Don, why do you feel it would be superior?
Don't get me wrong, I think leg to leg or phase to phase (all circuits should be end of winding to end of winding, whether one or more) is the way to go. But talking about the voltage to ground system?
Roger
[ July 17, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Don, why do you feel it would be superior?
Don't get me wrong, I think leg to leg or phase to phase (all circuits should be end of winding to end of winding, whether one or more) is the way to go. But talking about the voltage to ground system?
Roger
[ July 17, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Tomo your question is answered in Art 250. Thats a long answer. If you call mike holts office or go on line, order his excellent grounding and bonding text, with the video. It will explain this for you.
Tomo your question is answered in Art 250. Thats a long answer. If you call mike holts office or go on line, order his excellent grounding and bonding text, with the video. It will explain this for you.
frenchelectrican
Senior Member
- Location
- Nord'est Wisconsin et Paris France
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
karl : you say in europe sometime use 4 th wire for grounding wire
yes sometime they use it majorty of time when you see the 4 wire there it very good chance it have 3 phase service comming in for residental service ( i am from france oringally ) and yeah they have 220/400 volts btw the 220 is line to neutral and 400 is phase to phase but few place in europian citys do have 4 wire for grounding due some area have plastic water pipe and local codes admendents there if need the european codes let me know i will try to make it simple here for both U.K. and France
merci marc
karl : you say in europe sometime use 4 th wire for grounding wire
yes sometime they use it majorty of time when you see the 4 wire there it very good chance it have 3 phase service comming in for residental service ( i am from france oringally ) and yeah they have 220/400 volts btw the 220 is line to neutral and 400 is phase to phase but few place in europian citys do have 4 wire for grounding due some area have plastic water pipe and local codes admendents there if need the european codes let me know i will try to make it simple here for both U.K. and France
merci marc
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Bennie
Here is a good history topic for this industry. When did we start the practice of not running an EGC with the service? Why did we not run the equipment ground conductor with the service? What year or period of time did this occur?
Pierre
Bennie
Here is a good history topic for this industry. When did we start the practice of not running an EGC with the service? Why did we not run the equipment ground conductor with the service? What year or period of time did this occur?
Pierre
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Don
I agree with you that an EGC run with the service would ultimately be a better system.
Bob
The NEC rules for this could be rewritten to follow this system.
The 'people' who would argue the most about would be the Utility companies, they would have the most to loose.
There are 2 communities in this country, where I believe the Utility company is being forced to run the EGC to residences because of stray voltage. One in California, the other in New Jersy. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Pierre
Don
I agree with you that an EGC run with the service would ultimately be a better system.
Bob
The NEC rules for this could be rewritten to follow this system.
The 'people' who would argue the most about would be the Utility companies, they would have the most to loose.
There are 2 communities in this country, where I believe the Utility company is being forced to run the EGC to residences because of stray voltage. One in California, the other in New Jersy. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Pierre
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Pierre: All grounded services have an equipment ground conductor, a ground electrode conductor, and a neutral load conductor. It is the same one.
There has never been, and will never be, separate conductors at the service for these functions.
European services are normally two wires, 230 volts, to a home. One side is active and the other is earthed. No loss of neutral problems.
The only services that do not have a multi-purpose neutral is an ungrounded delta. The tank of the transformer is not even electrically connected to the service equipment, as many think.
Pierre: All grounded services have an equipment ground conductor, a ground electrode conductor, and a neutral load conductor. It is the same one.
There has never been, and will never be, separate conductors at the service for these functions.
European services are normally two wires, 230 volts, to a home. One side is active and the other is earthed. No loss of neutral problems.
The only services that do not have a multi-purpose neutral is an ungrounded delta. The tank of the transformer is not even electrically connected to the service equipment, as many think.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
I think in the future, we will more than likely use the Earth's magnetic field for generaton of electrical current. NASA is currently experimenting with a conductive tether extended from space vehicles. As the Earth rotates and the vehicle orbits, the tether cuts through the ionosphere and Earth's magentic flux. Neat stuff!
Localized DC plants of solar and fuel cells will operate small gated communities as Edison believed during the AC / DC wars of the early 1900's. They will be completely isolated form external systems. GE has been developing appliances and equipment that can be readily operated from either a DC or AC source. Also neat stuff!
Even Tesla late in his life began to question Earth grounding. He saw electrical generation and transmission being more efficent as ultra-high radio and microwave transmission verses the conventional method of today that he primarily invented. He had some wild ideas, however, everyone including Edison thought he was crazy trying to develop an AC motor. Had the man had proper funding and more time, systems of today would almost certainly be not as they are.
I think in the future, we will more than likely use the Earth's magnetic field for generaton of electrical current. NASA is currently experimenting with a conductive tether extended from space vehicles. As the Earth rotates and the vehicle orbits, the tether cuts through the ionosphere and Earth's magentic flux. Neat stuff!
Localized DC plants of solar and fuel cells will operate small gated communities as Edison believed during the AC / DC wars of the early 1900's. They will be completely isolated form external systems. GE has been developing appliances and equipment that can be readily operated from either a DC or AC source. Also neat stuff!
Even Tesla late in his life began to question Earth grounding. He saw electrical generation and transmission being more efficent as ultra-high radio and microwave transmission verses the conventional method of today that he primarily invented. He had some wild ideas, however, everyone including Edison thought he was crazy trying to develop an AC motor. Had the man had proper funding and more time, systems of today would almost certainly be not as they are.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Also, keep in mind that the electric utilities have nothing to lose if these changes were to happen. We are generally regulated and would be able to raise our rates to recover the expense the same as pollution controls. If all electric utilities are required to follow the same rules, the ratepayers (you) will pay for the upgrades. :roll:
The NEC would not affect the electric utilities who follow the NESC. I wonder if the next step would be to require the addition of a grounding conductor all the way from the substations and ultimately from the generating plants. If you are a follower of Don Zipse, you will see all of these ideas being presented to the NEC and the NESC.
Also, keep in mind that the electric utilities have nothing to lose if these changes were to happen. We are generally regulated and would be able to raise our rates to recover the expense the same as pollution controls. If all electric utilities are required to follow the same rules, the ratepayers (you) will pay for the upgrades. :roll:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Rogger,
I think it would be better because the 4th wire would eliminate the parallel paths for grounded conductor current that exist in all NEC compliant installations. The grounded conductor would only be connected to earth at the utility transformer so there would be no other path.
Don
Rogger,
I think it would be better because the 4th wire would eliminate the parallel paths for grounded conductor current that exist in all NEC compliant installations. The grounded conductor would only be connected to earth at the utility transformer so there would be no other path.
Don
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Don, good point. For some reason I wasn't thinking about the seperation at the user end.
How do they ground their other utilities, (phone water etc...) do they simply attach to the grounding conductor with no other connection to earth?
Roger
Don, good point. For some reason I wasn't thinking about the seperation at the user end.
How do they ground their other utilities, (phone water etc...) do they simply attach to the grounding conductor with no other connection to earth?
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Well yes they could but at this point not until 2008, I figure Tomo does not want to wait that long.
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
I am late getting back to this thread.
Marc, I should have said Germany rather than Europe. I don't know about France.
And yes, the neutral and ground are kept separate at the main panel.
And yes, I was taking this topic beyond the NEC.
Karl
I am late getting back to this thread.
Marc, I should have said Germany rather than Europe. I don't know about France.
And yes, the neutral and ground are kept separate at the main panel.
And yes, I was taking this topic beyond the NEC.
Karl
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Service Entrance Conductors
Karl:
In the distribution systems you describe in Germany, do they use a grounding electrode for the grounding conductor at the service?
Karl:
In the distribution systems you describe in Germany, do they use a grounding electrode for the grounding conductor at the service?
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