Service entrance conductors

[Bowhunter]

Is it permissible to install a new 200amp. service panel with a main breaker approx. 18 inches away from the old panel. Then run a new conduit for the service conductors from the old panel to the new panel and splice the service conductors in that old panel that is kept as a junction box?
It also has the circuit conductors spliced in that same old panel that is now being used as a junction box. Other than being a very unprofessional way to do the new panel; what are the code violations?
This is in a single family dwelling. The feed comes out of the back of an underground meter fitting into the back of the old panel in the basement. Done by a happy home owner.

 

[jaggedben]

Potential problems I see:

-Although I don't know if code requires it, I'd say if the old panel is going to be used only as a junction box, then all it's guts (busbars, etc.) should be removed. That is not too hard.
-The cover of the old panel probably would have a dead front with open space for breakers and such. That open space would have to be covered up, in a way that wouldn't violate the listing of the old panel. Not that that necessarily can't be done, but it depends on the panel, and might be difficult in most cases. If I were a betting man, I'd bet your homeowner didn't give it the requisite attention.

About running branch or feeder circuits back through the old panel, I don't think that violates code per se.

 

[cadpoint]

Is it permissible to install a new 200amp. service panel with a main breaker approx. 18 inches away from the old panel. Then run a new conduit for the service conductors from the old panel to the new panel and splice the service conductors in that old panel that is kept as a junction box?
It also has the circuit conductors spliced in that same old panel that is now being used as a junction box. Other than being a very unprofessional way to do the new panel; what are the code violations?
This is in a single family dwelling. The feed comes out of the back of an underground meter fitting into the back of the old panel in the basement. Done by a happy home owner.

Is there 2 conduits? See Article 230.7.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is there 2 conduits? See Article 230.7.

I think Cadpoint is asking if the service conductors are run separately from the branch circuits. I assumed you had a separate conduit just for the se conductors. In that case I see no problem with it since 230.7 is about raceways not enclosures.

 

[wireguy8169]

Is it permissible to install a new 200amp. service panel with a main breaker approx. 18 inches away from the old panel. Then run a new conduit for the service conductors from the old panel to the new panel and splice the service conductors in that old panel that is kept as a junction box?
It also has the circuit conductors spliced in that same old panel that is now being used as a junction box. Other than being a very unprofessional way to do the new panel; what are the code violations?
This is in a single family dwelling. The feed comes out of the back of an underground meter fitting into the back of the old panel in the basement. Done by a happy home owner.

First thing I would say is that according to 312.8(3) a warning label would be needed on the outside of the box as to where the disconnecting means would be even though its in the new panel someone may not be aware of that.
Realizing that if the Service Disconnecting Means is in the new panel, that would mean if an individual was working in the old panel now junction box and turned of the Main, the service entrance conductors would still be energized. Which is not big deal if a person knows what they are doing.

But I do know that the code allows for splicing SE cable's and I see no other rule that would say its a code violation. Though I agree its not IMHO the best way to do its no less safe than working in the panel with the Main breaker off and the line side is still energized. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do but never if its unsafe. (Stepping off my safety soap box now :angel

Regards

 

[Dennis Alwon]

First thing I would say is that according to 312.8(3) a warning label would be needed on the outside of the box as to where the disconnecting means would be even though its in the new panel someone may not be aware of that.

If they are service entrance conductors there is no disconnecting means and if it is a splice box it is not needed. 312.8 is for feed thru, tap, or splices in panels with other OCPD's

 

[Ponchik]

i don't suppose 230.7 will apply???? :?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

i don't suppose 230.7 will apply???? :?

It may apply if there is only one raceway from the old panel to the new with service conductors and branch circuits. I believe there is a separate pipe for the service conductors and 230.7 does not include enclosures, just raceways.

 

[Ponchik]

It may apply if there is only one raceway from the old panel to the new with service conductors and branch circuits. I believe there is a separate pipe for the service conductors and 230.7 does not include enclosures, just raceways.

what i meant was the service conductors being spliced in the old box even though there may be a separate race ways between the panels.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

what i meant was the service conductors being spliced in the old box even though there may be a separate race ways between the panels.

I understood what you meant and since 230.7 only speaks of raceways , not enclosures, I see no issue with the install.

 

[M4gery]

To combat the issues that jaggedben brought up, why not replace the old panel with a small box (maybe 16" X 16" X 4")? This will also be a neater installation, IMO.

 

[jaggedben]

To combat the issues that jaggedben brought up, why not replace the old panel with a small box (maybe 16" X 16" X 4")? This will also be a neater installation, IMO.

If it was a recessed panel, it might have seemed like too much work for the homeowner to remove it, and possibly refinish the area around it. But I agree with you. Replacing it would be better, and laziness is no excuse for violating listings and/or code. If it was not a recessed panel then it's even less understandable.

 

[WIMaster]

Is the original panel listed to be used as a junction box?

 

[iwire]

Is the original panel listed to be used as a junction box?

To the NEC a 'panel' (Article 408) is just the guts that are often put into a cabinet (Article 312).

312.8 allows cabinets containing overcurrent devices to be used as raceways and junction boxes. The cabinet does not have to be listed for use as a junction box.

 

[WIMaster]

I will have to reread that and point it out to a few of our local AHJs.