Service Entrance or Feeder

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Pat Bass

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Location
San Antonio, TX
We have a disagreement among the Engineering Staff (as you would expect).
The scenerio is this. Pole mounted service transformer (fused on high side)
with a fused disconnect switch at the bottom of the pole. (service is not metered since it is our own power). Inside the fused disconnect switch the service transformer neutral, the Grounding Electrode Conductor, the Equipment Ground Conductor and the Neutral conductor to the panelboard are bonded to the case and the Grounding Electrode Conductor goes to the Grounding Electrode.

The disagreement is this. The wires from this point to the panelboard (or in some cases an Automatic Transfer Switch) it is feeding are by some refered to as Service Entrance Conductors, by some as Service Laterals. I say they are Feeders. Who is correct? They are underground and in some cases run 100' or more.
 
Service Entrance or Feeder

I would call the conductors from the transformer secondary to the first fused disconnect,Service Entrance Conductors,The conductors from the load side of the first disconnect a feeder.

If I am correct the then GEC should be out at the pole,where the main disconnect is located.
 
IMO, if there is no utility, then I don't think you have any service conductors. They are all feeders. See the definition of "service point" and "service conductors" in Article 100.

Steve
 
steve66 said:
IMO, if there is no utility, then I don't think you have any service conductors. They are all feeders. See the definition of "service point" and "service conductors" in Article 100.

Steve
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Wouldn't that depend on the purpose of the facility? NEC 90.2
 
steve66 said:
IMO, if there is no utility, then I don't think you have any service conductors. They are all feeders. See the definition of "service point" and "service conductors" in Article 100.

Steve
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I agree with Steve, if these transformers and conductors are owned by you and are under your control then I feel they are feeders.

Chris
 
Ignore the location or absence of the meterbase . . It just unnecessarily complicates the answer. . Article 100 definition of Service-Entrance Conductors says it goes to the “terminals of the service equipment”. . The Service Equipment is “cutoff of the supply”, which is disconnect and OCPD [230.91].

Feeder starts at “the service equipment” on the side of the “final branch-circuit overcurrent device”.

David
 
raider1 said:
I agree with Steve, if these transformers and conductors are owned by you and are under your control then I feel they are feeders.

Chris
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90.2(4) Say this is an office or shop building or something similar that is not completely in the utilitity's easement than90.2(4) applies and then they are service entrance conductors. Just because it is owned by the utility and there is no meter doesn't mean NEC doesn't apply.
 
steve66 said:
IMO, if there is no utility, then I don't think you have any service conductors. They are all feeders. See the definition of "service point" and "service conductors" in Article 100.

Steve
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I agree
No service
No service conductors
 
aja21 said:
90.2(4) Say this is an office or shop building or something similar that is not completely in the utilitity's easement than90.2(4) applies and then they are service entrance conductors. Just because it is owned by the utility and there is no meter doesn't mean NEC doesn't apply.
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By the fact that there's no meter, I would guess that it stays under utility control. . This doesn't sound like an office or building supply.

Maybe Pat can clarify.
 
aja21 said:
dnem said:
I agree
No service
No service conductors
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By removing a metering device you remove the service?
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I?m not saying that the meter is the trigger to determine a service. . I?m saying the extent of the exclusive control of the electric utility is the trigger.

David
 
Location is inside an electrical substation and the service is to the control house. Power is typically provided from the secondary of a power bank (12.5-25 kV). One phase will be fed to a pole mounted 25-50 kw Station Service transformer. We then feed it to a fused disconnect at the foot of the pole. That location can be 50'-300' or more from the control house. Usually we feed it to an Automatic Transfer Switch (with a switched neutral) because we typically have a backup from a second separately derived system. Then it is fed to the panel boards which feed the branch circuits.

I know that we are not under NEC but we try to adhere to NEC as much as possible since it is a good guide.

Hope this helps to clarify.
 
Pat Bass said:
Location is inside an electrical substation and the service is to the control house. Power is typically provided from the secondary of a power bank (12.5-25 kV). One phase will be fed to a pole mounted 25-50 kw Station Service transformer. We then feed it to a fused disconnect at the foot of the pole. That location can be 50'-300' or more from the control house. Usually we feed it to an Automatic Transfer Switch (with a switched neutral) because we typically have a backup from a second separately derived system. Then it is fed to the panel boards which feed the branch circuits.

I know that we are not under NEC but we try to adhere to NEC as much as possible since it is a good guide.

Hope this helps to clarify.
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FEEDER. Thanks for the clarification. Out here most of our backup is by battery 135dc. We try to follow nec as much as possible in our substations, hydro plants, and comm bldgs. but some of us are set in our ways and "wont file for permit" on our office bldg. completely seperate from our utility type bldgs. .
 
I'd say the fused disconnect at the pole is the NEC equivalent to a service disconnect, regardless of the presence or lack of a meter, IMO.

Pat Bass said:
I know that we are not under NEC but we try to adhere to NEC as much as possible since it is a good guide.
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Does the NESC have much in the way of LV wiring requirements?

I'm asking because I've never seen it - I can only picture an NEC-governed installation, so I wonder how an NESC-governed installation would differ.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
To answer the OP's question in his first post is relatively easy. Regardless of whether the supply to the line side of the disco or panel at the pole, the conductors on the load side are feeders.
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Yes relatively easy from the disconnect out, what do you think about the conductors from the xfrmr to the first ocpd.I work at a facilty that maintains all there own primary, and a lot of single phase xfrmrs feed temporary trailers,and site lighting.I always considerd the secondary conductors as service but without utility supply, i suppose they would also be feeders.
Rick
 
RUWired said:
Yes relatively easy from the disconnect out, what do you think about the conductors from the xfrmr to the first ocpd.
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If that OCPD is also the disco, then the line side is service.
 
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