Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

[wolfman56]

I always assumed the 2000 NEC requirement of installing AFCI's in bedrooms is for new construction only. However I was recently told that when doing a service upgrade or change, that AFCI's must be installed for the bedrooms. I'm interested in what's been required by the AHJ's in Washington State, and elswhere.
Rick

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Unless legally adopted otherwise (through the state/city legislature), the NEC is not retro-active and therefore the AFCI's would not be required.

If I were you, considering the cost of these breakers, I would ask to see the code reference/amendment that requires this.

 

[wolfman56]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

ryan_618
My thoughts exactly. My debate is not with an AHJ, but with another sparky. Their idea is that the service is a NEW installation and thus AFCI's are required. I'm just not sure. Old wiring system, new service?????

 

[iwire]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

The State of MA has this requirement, change the service and you have to add the AFCIs.

As Ryan said I would ask for something more than a verbal request for these to be installed before I paid for them.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Bob, that requirement was rescinded as of May '02. Almost as fast as it was enacted. 210.12 applies only to new installations here.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Originally posted by wolfman56:
Their idea is that the service is a NEW installation

Where does this philosiphy end? Do you have to add EGC's and replace all the outlets to grounding type if they are two-wire?

Give me a break... :roll:

[ October 14, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]

 

[wolfman56]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

ryan_618
I see the reasoning here. Look at it this way.
If you were replacing the outlets in a kitchen or bathroom. Would you not put in GFCI's? ( Of course I really don't know if code would require that either.)
In a service upgrade, the breakers are being replaced.

 

[Guest]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Before flipping the handles on a new service I like to do a simple safety check of what's downstream. It's shocking to find out what's hanging on those new circuit breakers. I have a whole checklist I like to go through. It doesn't take too long to run through the whole house.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Hmm...I didn't realize you were talking about an "all in one" panel being replaced.

I could see your electricians point. In regards to the kitchen GFCI question, yes, if you replace the outlet they must be GFCI.
My question is, if the kitchen doesn't have GFCI receptalces, would your electrician argue that the new breakers be GFCI to protect the kitchen receptacles?

 

[ceb]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

I am doing a house that was fire damaged the home when built only required the one smoke detc. in hall way outside of bedrooms.Before I began any work I had the insp. meet me at job site to go over what the electrical eng. for the ins. co. said needed replacing and what was ok. to make sure he agreed with what was to be done. He signed off on every thing that the ins. co. had recommended except he required me to install afci for all bed rooms and smoke det. in all bedrooms along with hallway.When I questioned as to why since the bedrooms only had smoke damage and the panel had no damage at all. His reasoning was what was damaged was over 50% of the home and those two items needed to be brought into code.
Footnote: when I presented the quote for the extra smokies and afic I got no argument from the ins. co. and the owner said he did not care if ins. paid or not that is what he wanted

 

[Guest]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Hmm...I didn't realize you were talking about an "all in one" panel being replaced. <snip>

I see your point now too. Even if not an all-in-one (combo) the new service is still at the head of the stream and anything downstream should be safety checked before any handles are turned. Good question about having to put GFCI's in a combo.

Note to CEB: My town AHJ asks for smokes to be installed on any electrical permit, but they do allow a battery operated option. They use the permit process as an opportunity to make the citizens safer-- without going overboard. They require smokes on resale of property too.

../Wayne C.

[ October 15, 2003, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Service upgrade / AFCI's ?

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Bob, that requirement was rescinded as of May '02. Almost as fast as it was enacted. 210.12 applies only to new installations here.

Thank you Scott I was going by my MA amendments, I will cross that one out.

In truth I have never even touched a AFCI breaker, they are not used on the jobs I work.