Service upgrade?

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ampedup

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I'm remodeling my kitchen (live in metro Boston) and have received 4 quotes for electrical work. None of the electricians have completed a load calculation to see if an upgrade to 200 Amps from the existing 100 Amps is necessary, but 2 of the quotes included the upgrade ($6,000 and $6,900 quotes, both of which include approximately $1,000 in stock - recessed lights, under-cabinet lights, dimmers, etc.). Here are the home specs:

1,800 sf of living area (plus 1,200 sf unfinished basement)
Electric range
Combination microwave/convection/range hood
2 refrigerators (21 cubic feet each - both new)
Dishwasher
Garbage disposal
Oil burner with attached Amtrol hot water heater (heater rated at "less than 12 Amps")
Central A/C
3/4 hp swimming pool filter motor
1 washer
1 dryer
Attic fan
1 Desktop PC

Given the above information, is an upgrade to 200 amp service required? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
 
I did a quick, and unofficial calculation, based on your list and the circuits I know are required. I came up with just over 80 amps. I can not be certain that this is right, but I can be certain that the "real answer" is not smaller than this answer. I do not know the ratings of all the equipment you list, so I made "reasonable" assumptions.

If it were my house, I would pay for the upgrade (in fact, I did just such an upgrade when I bought the house last year). That is because a known load of 80 amps on a 100 amp panel is too close to putting the panel beyond its capabilities (or at least, too close for my comfort level).

A formal load calculation, given all the details (of which you provided most, but not all), can be done in just a few minutes. I might suggest that you suggest (to the two electrical contractors who offered the upgrade) that if they wish to sell you on the upgrade, they will have to produce a service calculation that justifies the upgrade. My opinion is that if a calculation gives an answer over 90 amps, then I would absolutely recommend the upgrade.

Good luck.
 
Thanks

Thanks

Thanks Charlie B. I'll take your advice and have the electricians do the calculations. Is there any reliable Excel-based load calculation model available online so that i can do a calculation on my own (to see if the load exceeds 90)?

Amazing - I figured $2,000 for electrical work and light installs and now I'm up to $6,000. But if it's the right thing to do I should probably go ahead and bite the bullet. Thanks again.
 
There is more to a service upgrade than numbers.


Post a pic of your existing service.

If you need more kitchen circuits there may not be space in your old panel. There also may be other issues to take into consideration.
 
celtic said:
Would the calculation be based on 230.83?
Click to expand...
I think you mean 220.83 (load calculation for existing dwelling unit).

That is not the way I would go. But it's not my money.

For the benefit of "ampedup," one of the ways that the code allows us to determine if an existing electrical system has capacity in to handle more load is to take measurements of the amount of load being drawn. You can install a meter and take measurements for a month, or you can use one year's worth of utility bills (if they are available, and if they show the peak demand each month). The way it works is you look at the highest load you have seen over a period of time, add 25% as a "safety margin," then add the amount of new load, and see if this brings you over the 100 amp rating of your panel.

It is possible, though not certain, that this process would show that you don't need to upgrade. But as I said earlier, that is not the path I took. I upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps, mostly because so many things are electric these days (for me, that includes all space heating and the water heater) that I wanted to make sure the power supply was available. My cost for the upgrade and a host of small tasks was on the order of $6,000.

 
ampedup said:
I'm remodeling my kitchen (live in metro Boston) and have received 4 quotes for electrical work. None of the electricians have completed a load calculation to see if an upgrade to 200 Amps from the existing 100 Amps is necessary, but 2 of the quotes included the upgrade ($6,000 and $6,900 quotes, both of which include approximately $1,000 in stock - recessed lights, under-cabinet lights, dimmers, etc.). Here are the home specs:

1,800 sf of living area (plus 1,200 sf unfinished basement)
Electric range
Combination microwave/convection/range hood
2 refrigerators (21 cubic feet each - both new)
Dishwasher
Garbage disposal
Oil burner with attached Amtrol hot water heater (heater rated at "less than 12 Amps")
Central A/C
3/4 hp swimming pool filter motor
1 washer
1 dryer
Attic fan
1 Desktop PC

Given the above information, is an upgrade to 200 amp service required? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
Click to expand...

There are other factors to consider other than your present load. In what condition is the existing service? If you do not increase your service, how much physical space will your panel have after this renovation? (Will the next 2000.00 improvement put you over the edge and necessitate a 4000.00 heavy up as well?)

Another consideration is, do you expect to intensify the use of your home (more people, power-hungry hobby, outdoor kitchen, larger pool, addition) in the forseeable future? Are you more likely to add hi hats to rooms, or replace incandescent lamps with compact flourescents?

Consider a gas range instead of electric, and you've eliminated one of the the biggest reasons homes went from 60a services in the 1950's to 100. (40 amps @ 240 volts) Do the same for an electric clothes dryer and the 3rd biggest reason (about 25a @ 240 volts) disappears as well. Also note - the trend in central a/c equipment is higher efficiency. And the trend for both air conditioners and refrigeration equipment is towards longer run time at fewer amps.
 
charlie b said:
That is not the way I would go. But it's not my money.

I upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps, mostly because so many things are electric these days (for me, that includes all space heating and the water heater) that I wanted to make sure the power supply was available. My cost for the upgrade and a host of small tasks was on the order of $6,000.

Click to expand...

Charlie, I'm curious as to what your Kwh is in your neck of the woods?
 
Service Upgrade

Service Upgrade

There are no slots available for any additional circuits on the existing box (and the kitchen renovation will require a couple of new circuits). So my options are to have a new breaker box installed with 40 slots keeping my existing 100 Amp service or upgrade to 200 Amp service with a new, larger box. I've attached 2 pictures of the current service. Any suggestions? Thanks.
 
Based on those 2 pictures, I would say that in the very least you should go for a new, 40 space panel, 200a main. This would consolidate those 2 disconnects and eliminate them as well, and provide all the space you'd need for a few more additional circuits. This wouldn't cost much more than what you're going to have to spend for another subpanel anyway.

You could backfeed a 100a breaker in the new panel with the existing service and meter if all that equipment is up to snuff and your load doesn't demand a total 200a increase. But if in the future your demands warrant, an upgrade would only involve the "UPPER 1/2" of your service. (From the POCO drop through the meter and to the 200a panel.)
 
Electric Bill

Electric Bill

By the way, my electric bill doesn't include peak daily readings. But the highest monthly reading I had was last month, when I used 1473 KWH (49 KWH/day).
 
ampedup said:
By the way, my electric bill doesn't include peak daily readings.
Click to expand...
Then it may not be of value to you, in this context.

The relationship between "demand," in units of kilowatts, and "energy usage," in units of kilowatt-hours, is similar to the relationship between your car's speed, in units of miles per hour, and the distance you travelled today, in units of miles. One is a measure of how fast things are happening, and the other is a measure of how much was done.

Having a panel rated at 100 amps, as opposed to a panel rated at 200 amps, is more closely related to the car's speed (i.e., how fast can you use up energy). Knowing how much energy you used in a month does not tell us whether that energy was used at a slow, constant pace, or whether you had a couple days of heavy usage (i.e., cooking all day for a large crowd on a hot day with the air conditioner going full blast).

So if the utility has records, in addition to what they show on your monthly bill, that do include the peak demand for each of 12 consecutive months, then this could be used as the basis for a calculation. You may have to ask them for more information, if you wish to go down this path. may
 
IMO you need an upgrade, and the prices that you received are very fair. There's really not much to it than that, except for the additional strain on the wallet.:rolleyes:
 
There are some issues that should be taken care of in those pics.

All electric a/c, range, dryer, (H2o heater?) and pool?Even without load calcs I would upgrade. What does the service look like outside? There may be a few more issues there.
 
ampedup said:
Amazing - I figured $2,000 for electrical work and light installs and now I'm up to $6,000. But if it's the right thing to do I should probably go ahead and bite the bullet. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

It happens all the time...I recently completed a remodel w/addition..electric end was at about 9k when we started...now at "completion" it's at 20k.

By completion, I mean...the house job is done, now it's onto the yard - which was never a part of the original contract.
 
After reading through this the one thing that stood out was...."I figured $2,000.00 for the electrical work......"

How did you figure this??

Can we see your numbers?
 
$2,000

$2,000

1. Stock:
9 Lightolier remodeling cans
5 Kichler undercabinet lights
Lutron dimmers

Total stock cost: $800

2. Labor (installation of stock listed above) - I estimated the cost at $50 each for the above fixtures = $700

3. Install microwave (with exhaust fan) above range - $200

3. Miscellaneous: Install 4 new wall outlets, move existing hanging light fixture to center above kitchen table, convert existing.2-way switch to 3-way. I estimated that these should run about $300.

Total = $2,000

Now I'm looking at around $6,000 (which includes an upgrade to 200 Amp service). Obviously this is a substantial departure from my original budget and scope of work. Annoying (and expensive), but if the work is necessary then I'll spend the money.
 
ampedup said:
1. Stock:
9 Lightolier remodeling cans
5 Kichler undercabinet lights
Lutron dimmers

Total stock cost: $800

2. Labor (installation of stock listed above) - I estimated the cost at $50 each for the above fixtures = $700

3. Install microwave (with exhaust fan) above range - $200

3. Miscellaneous: Install 4 new wall outlets, move existing hanging light fixture to center above kitchen table, convert existing.2-way switch to 3-way. I estimated that these should run about $300.

Total = $2,000

Now I'm looking at around $6,000 (which includes an upgrade to 200 Amp service). Obviously this is a substantial departure from my original budget and scope of work. Annoying (and expensive), but if the work is necessary then I'll spend the money.
Click to expand...
What about wire, devices, wire nuts, connectors, permits, etc?

50 bucks per remodler can? If you can get someone to do it for that more power to you.

125 per remodler + Cans/Bulbs/Trims is more like it. 9 total

Dimmers can be expensive as well running up to 100 bucks a piece.

5 Kichler UC lts most of these run 50- 75 a piece plus "old working" them is a bear. I'd say 125 a piece+ lights for them as well. 5 total

Micro is close to that maybe a bit more depending on blocking in walls and suitability of Cabinet for Microwave.

Add 4 outlets, these are in the Kit I'm assuming and adding a 3 way to the equation along with relocating a light, these would run 900 easy.

Price is for all that + a Service Upgrade to 200A correct? Seems fair to me as well.

Permit could be 200+ depending on where you are.



Tom
 
ampedup said:
1. Stock:
9 Lightolier remodeling cans
5 Kichler undercabinet lights
Lutron dimmers

Total stock cost: $800

2. Labor (installation of stock listed above) - I estimated the cost at $50 each for the above fixtures = $700

3. Install microwave (with exhaust fan) above range - $200

3. Miscellaneous: Install 4 new wall outlets, move existing hanging light fixture to center above kitchen table, convert existing.2-way switch to 3-way. I estimated that these should run about $300.

Total = $2,000
Click to expand...
Not quite...
9 recessed cans ...about $150 ea~ basic trim = $1350

That's almost your entire budget right there...and that's for JUST the cans...if a new circuit must be run, add more money

4 UC lights....about $115 ea~=$460

...things are getting tight now (1350+460=$1810)

How many dimmers?
You have $190 left..at $100 ea.

How many switches at $75 ea?

And we still haven't even touched upon the circuits/recepts. that are required...that MW over the hood ~ that gets a seperate circuit.


I am curious as to how you arrived at your numbers?
 
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