Setting Instantaneous CB 430.52.C.3

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Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
Q: How come the NEC uses the Design letter, and energy efficiency rating to set the instantaneous in a combination controller? I would think the Code letter would be a better choice.

Now before you jump out a explain that "energy efficient" has a higher inrush than a "standard efficiency" motor - most of the 'energy efficient" motors I am seeing are Code G - same as the standard efficiency motors. And the locked-rotor kva (and thus LRA) is specified by Code letter, not Design letter.

Somehow I have connected: inrush current = LRA. Is there something I am not understanding about this?

I'll be able to look at an electrical machinery handbook next week and will find a motor model. But until then, I'm look to increase my understanding.

cf
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Have you reviewed NEC art 430-52 for what settings are allows for instantaneous trip breakers?
Remember that the motor OLR is sized to protect the motor from an overload. The instantaneous trip breaker, motor circuit protector (MCP) protects the motor circuit should the motor fail. Motor fail often time starts with a minor winding to ground fault and escalates from there. It's the MCP that should pick up the fault and clear the circuit to prevent a catastrophic failure and minimize motor damage.
The MCP has a magnetic element with no time delay. It will trip instantly when the fault current rises high enough.
LRA is usually no more than 7X the FLA. LRA is not inrush. Inrush if the asymmetrical spike of current that occurs when the stator and rotor iron are first magnetized. This decays down in about 1/10 sec to the LRA. The LRA of a standard efficiency motor is usually around 13X the FLA where energy efficient motors can easily reach as mush as 17X the FLA.
As such, inrush is not LRA.
Simply take the FLA X 13. If you are plagues with nuisance tripping you are allowed to set the MCP up to 17X the FLA. Personally I like to set the MCP as low as I can get away with without nuisance tripping on start up. As such I'm assured that the MCP will trip at any current that exceeds the inrush during the motor's normal operation.
When you really think about it instantaneous spikes of fault current either 13 or 17X are just that, spikes of current. It is hard to anticipate what values of fault current an arcing fault will generate. The object is to detect and pick them up at as low of a value as possible.
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
templdl said:
Have you reviewed NEC art 430-52 for what settings are allows for instantaneous trip breakers?
Remember that the motor OLR is sized to protect the motor from an overload. The instantaneous trip breaker, motor circuit protector (MCP) protects the motor circuit should the motor fail. Motor fail often time starts with a minor winding to ground fault and escalates from there. It's the MCP that should pick up the fault and clear the circuit to prevent a catastrophic failure and minimize motor damage.
The MCP has a magnetic element with no time delay. It will trip instantly when the fault current rises high enough. (cut)

If you are plagues with nuisance tripping you are allowed to set the MCP up to 17X the FLA. (cut)
Thanks for the help, however, I am aware of all of this.

templdl said:
(cut) LRA is usually no more than 7X the FLA. LRA is not inrush. Inrush if the asymmetrical spike of current that occurs when the stator and rotor iron are first magnetized. This decays down in about 1/10 sec to the LRA. The LRA of a standard efficiency motor is usually around 13X the FLA where energy efficient motors can easily reach as mush as 17X the FLA.
As such, inrush is not LRA. (cut)
I think you mixed up "inrush" and "LRA" in this section. Are you saying the inrush spike is 13X FLA for a standard efficiency and 17X for energy efficiency? If so, do you have any references for this?

Next thing I would question is your blanket statement about LRA is no more than 7XFLA. There is a code letter on the nameplate that Nema MG-1 says is indicative of the locked rotor kva - which by extension is indicative of the LRA. Which as near as I can tell, could be between 4x and 17X (that is also the limits of the ones I have seen). You are right that most motors are Code G, which tops out at 6.29kva/hp - which for a 460V, 40hp, translates to 6X.

Interesting thought: Are you saying that the inrush spike is independent of the Code letter on the nameplate? ..ie the spike will be 17XFLA even if the code letter is riduculusly high or low? If so, that is a new thought for me. I'd also be interested in references for this as well.

templdl said:
(cut) The instantaneous trip breaker, motor circuit protector (MCP) protects the motor circuit should the motor fail. Motor fail often time starts with a minor winding to ground fault and escalates from there. It's the MCP that should pick up the fault and clear the circuit to prevent a catastrophic failure and minimize motor damage. (cut)

Personally I like to set the MCP as low as I can get away with without nuisance tripping on start up. As such I'm assured that the MCP will trip at any current that exceeds the inrush during the motor's normal operation.
When you really think about it instantaneous spikes of fault current either 13 or 17X are just that, spikes of current. It is hard to anticipate what values of fault current an arcing fault will generate. The object is to detect and pick them up at as low of a value as possible.
I don't tend to agree with this philosophy. I don't think the instaneous CB is particularly designed to protect the conductors - nor the motor. Any coordination I've seen, the cable damage curve is outside of the overload curve. My thinking is by the time a motor controller instantaneous trips, something is already toast - generally either the motor or the motor feeder. The CB does not limit the current - the nature of the fault does. Stick a backhoe in the feeder, winding failure leading to molten slag - either way there is nothing to save. I think the purpose of the instantaneous CB is get the fire out as quickly as possible. I've always tended to set the instantaneous as high as allowed - overloads as well. I've never burned up a motor because of this philosophy.

templdl said:
(cut) Simply take the FLA X 13. If you are plagues with nuisance tripping you are allowed to set the MCP up to 17X the FLA. (cut)
I think I have it figured out where to set the instantaneous and the overlaods. That's not an issue.

I am interested in why this Code G energy efficient has a higher inrush than a Code G standard efficiency.

There is another issue, but I listed that one in a separate post.

cf
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Cold Fusion,
No, I know very well the difference between inrush and LRA as "inrush" is not the same as LRA. I've been dealing with these applications for years.

I trust that this post will illustrate the energy efficient motors are not magically different than standard efficiency motors. It's just that they use less energy to do the same amount of work with the exception of inrush and not NEMA torque curves or code letters being the issue. I've included a lot of stuff in this post, some of which may seem like I'm preaching the choir but the whole picture must be considered not bits and pieces.

It is not unusual to not understand what happens when a motor starts.
It is often misunderstood that the LRA is the only current event that specifically occurs at the point the motor is energized or if the motor's rotor is locked and unable to turn. The value of the LRA actually continues through the acceleration of the motor.

As mentioned in my previous post the inrush is a spike of current as the result of magnetizing the iron in the motor, which quickly decays in about 1/10 second to the LRA value. This current spile of often up to 13X the FLA reaching as high a 17X with some motors. Studues have found that they can even exceed 17X on a rare occasion. The LRA value then continues through the time that it takes to accelerate the motor to about 80% of its speed. (Of course there are exceptions the the 80% just like the LRA.)
I found the following to be a good explanation of what actually occurs from this excerpt from: http://www.lmphotonics.com/m_control.htm:

"The starting current of a with a fixed voltage, will drop very slowly as the motor accelerates and will only begin to fall significantly when the motor has reached at least 80% full speed. The actual curves for induction motors can vary considerably between designs, but the general trend is for a high current until the motor has almost reached full speed. The LRC of a motor can range from 500% Full Load Current (FLC) to as high as 1400% FLC. Typically, good motors fall in the range of 550% to 750% FLC."
This is illustrated by the attached torque curve.

There are those who would love to find the exceptions to the rule to typical LRA but the fact remains that a good rule of thumb is 7X for the average motor.
I have attached a copy of a chart that shows NEMA design A, B, C, and D torque curves, the typical torque curve of which is B. Knowing that starting current is related to torque the chart illustrates torque curves with higher starting torque than the design B that naturally would equate to higher starting current than 7x.

Energy efficiency has nothing to do with the NEMA torque curve. It simply has to do with the motor performance remaining the same and accomplished more efficiently. How would one propose that an enegy efficient motor would have a different torque curve?

NEMA Design Letter. Changes in motor windings and rotor design will alter the performance characteristics of induction motors. To obtain uniformity in application, NEMA has designated specific designs of general purpose motors having specified locked rotor torque, breakdown torque, slip, starting current, or other values. NEMA design letters are A, B, C, and D.
NEMA Design A motors have normal starting torques, but high starting currents. This is useful for applications with brief heavy overloads. Injection molding machines are a good application for this type of motor. Many of the Tatung design B motors can handle Design A requirements!
NEMA Design B motors are the most common. They feature normal starting torque combined with a low starting current. These motors have sufficient locked rotor torques to start a wide variety of industrial applications.
NEMA Design C motors have high starting torques with low starting currents. They are designed for starting heavy loads due to their high locked rotor torques and high full load slip.
NEMA Design D motors have high starting torque and low starting current, however they feature high slip. This reduces power peaks in the event that peak power is encountered, motor slip will increase.

NEMA code letters have nothing to do with NEMA code letters either and an energy efficient motor is designed to be more efficient, that is less heat for the work that it does. Heat is waisted energy. How would one proposde that these code letters below would change for enegy efficient motors?

NEMA Code Letters for Locked-Rotor KVA
The letter designations for locked-rotor kVA per horsepower as measured at full voltage and rated frequency are as follows.
NEMA
Code Letter KVA/HP
with locked rotor
A 0-3.14
B 3.15-3.55
C 3.55-3.99
D 4.0-4.49
E 4.5-4.99
F 5.0-5.59
G 5.6-6.29
H 6.3-7.09
J 7.1-7.99
K 8.0-8.99
L 9.0-9.99
M 10.0-11.19
N 11.2-12.49
P 12.5-13.99
R 14.0-15.99
S 16.0-17.99
T 18.0-19.99
U 20.0-22.39
V 22.4-and up

Because the energy efficient motor must be designed to essentialy give off less heat for the HP generated the only way that it can be done is to use a higher quality core steel and a more efficient winding design. This results in a lower resistance. Increased inrush, that increased assymetrical spike of current that decays in less than 1/10 sec, is what energy efficient motors are known for. There was a short period of time where you were caught between a rock and a hard place by the NEC where you were not allowed to set an MCP ablve 13X the FLA. Now the NEC allows settings up to 17X.

Cold Fusion, you may have misunderstood that I implied that the MCP protects the motor or the conductor. I believe that I have stated that the MCP takes the motor off line as it is failing. If the motor is failing if set correctly the MCP will limit damage. The only thing that the MCP can bring to the party with conductors is short circuit protection should there be a fault in the conductors which is not vet likely to occur with a good installation. The MCP also protects the contactor which most people don't have a clue about. Contactors are not designed to interrupt fault currents. Matter of fact if a contactor stays closed because the control circuit doesn't have a reason to open it and it is possible for the contacts to float and weld together due to fault current which may flow through the contactor.
MCP are designed to interrupt fault currents, contactors are not.

Westinghouse Electric Corporation invented the magnetic only circuit breaker because of the fires that occurred in motors when they failed. If you recall a thermal magnetic circuit breaker is design to protect cable when properly applied. Because the thermal element of a TM breaker does not coordinate with the overload protection that a motor requires and OLR with properly sized heaters for that motor are used. Then to cover short circuits the magnetic only MCP completes the protection.
 
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