Severe Backpedal on Neutrals at Switches in 2014

[George Stolz]

They dialed the requirements back quite a bit in 2014.

404.2(C) now requires neutrals only in habitable rooms and bathrooms. In those habitable rooms and bathrooms, if you can fish a new cable in without disturbing building finish, or even if you just happen to have threeways in the room, you don't need a neutral in any of the switches.

Methinks they might have completely undone their rule.

 

[kwired]

They dialed the requirements back quite a bit in 2014.

404.2(C) now requires neutrals only in habitable rooms and bathrooms. In those habitable rooms and bathrooms, if you can fish a new cable in without disturbing building finish, or even if you just happen to have threeways in the room, you don't need a neutral in any of the switches.

Methinks they might have completely undone their rule.

Some can fish in a new cable without disturbing building finish in places where others can't, especially TV cable/satellite installers, and a few other communications installers:happyyes:, but of course they don't need a neutral either

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The use of the word "habitable" takes out all of the typical commercial applications...the very applications where it is more likely that some type of electronic occupancy switch will be used.

 

[K8MHZ]

The use of the word "habitable" takes out all of the typical commercial applications...the very applications where it is more likely that some type of electronic occupancy switch will be used.

Even in residences that is true. I have never installed a motion detector in a habitable room. Just laundry room, foyer, outdoor light and garage.

 

[kwired]

Even in residences that is true. I have never installed a motion detector in a habitable room. Just laundry room, foyer, outdoor light and garage.

Good point, the areas where it is more likely to forget to turn off a light and be unattended for longer periods is the best places for automatic controls that may need this neutral:slaphead:

 

[jaylectricity]

I can't see the logic of an occupancy sensor in a bedroom anyway.

 

[K8MHZ]

Good point, the areas where it is more likely to forget to turn off a light and be unattended for longer periods is the best places for automatic controls that may need this neutral:slaphead:

True, but that's not why they were installed. Laundry and foyer, so lights come on when carrying things and don't have a hand free to fumble with a light switch. Outdoor and garage, so the lights come on some distance from where a switch would be located, also so they come on with the motion of a person or a vehicle, even if they don't want the lights to come on (think prowler). Those are in view of security cameras, if used.

 

[kwired]

True, but that's not why they were installed. Laundry and foyer, so lights come on when carrying things and don't have a hand free to fumble with a light switch. Outdoor and garage, so the lights come on some distance from where a switch would be located, also so they come on with the motion of a person or a vehicle, even if they don't want the lights to come on (think prowler). Those are in view of security cameras, if used.

That is for convenience, in my house I have considered such switching more so because kids seem to think energy is free and turning a light off is pointless unless you want darkness for some reason.

 

[K8MHZ]

That is for convenience, in my house I have considered such switching more so because kids seem to think energy is free and turning a light off is pointless unless you want darkness for some reason.

But in habitable rooms, people just may sit still longer than the turn off time of the sensor, leaving them in the dark. In bedrooms, unless you switch them off, you will have to endure a few moments of light as you retire. But, turning them off means a trek in the dark from the switch to the bed. So I don't see much practical use for them in bedrooms, living rooms, bathrooms or family rooms.

So really all that leaves is kitchens, dining rooms and hallways.

Sensors, for some, may actually use more energy than manual switching. There are many places where the lights are only used for a few seconds at a time and people actually turn the lights off after they are done. Sensors will stay on, even if the light is wasted, until they time out.

 

[GoldDigger]

But in habitable rooms, people just may sit still longer than the turn off time of the sensor, leaving them in the dark. In bedrooms, unless you switch them off, you will have to endure a few moments of light as you retire. But, turning them off means a trek in the dark from the switch to the bed. So I don't see much practical use for them in bedrooms, living rooms, bathrooms or family rooms.

So really all that leaves is kitchens, dining rooms and hallways.

Sensors, for some, may actually use more energy than manual switching. There are many places where the lights are only used for a few seconds at a time and people actually turn the lights off after they are done. Sensors will stay on, even if the light is wasted, until they time out.

Just as an interesting note, the new Nest Protect super smart smoke alarm includes an LED night light activated by an ultrasonic motion sensor. All you really need for just passing through a hallway or bedroom.

 

[ggunn]

Just as an interesting note, the new Nest Protect super smart smoke alarm includes an LED night light activated by an ultrasonic motion sensor. All you really need for just passing through a hallway or bedroom.

But does it turn on a light every time you turn over in bed?

 

[GoldDigger]

But does it turn on a light every time you turn over in bed?

Not enough motion toward or away from the unit to trigger Doppler ultrasound. If you sit up in bed, maybe.
Other activity in bed? Conduct tests and report back.

 

[kwired]

But in habitable rooms, people just may sit still longer than the turn off time of the sensor, leaving them in the dark. In bedrooms, unless you switch them off, you will have to endure a few moments of light as you retire. But, turning them off means a trek in the dark from the switch to the bed. So I don't see much practical use for them in bedrooms, living rooms, bathrooms or family rooms.

So really all that leaves is kitchens, dining rooms and hallways.

Sensors, for some, may actually use more energy than manual switching. There are many places where the lights are only used for a few seconds at a time and people actually turn the lights off after they are done. Sensors will stay on, even if the light is wasted, until they time out.

The bedroom - finding the way to the bed in the dark, or waiting for a delay to shut off isn't necessary as they already had a solution years ago - "The Clapper"

 

[GoldDigger]

The bedroom - finding the way to the bed in the dark, or waiting for a delay to shut off isn't necessary as they already had a solution years ago - "The Clapper"

But that probably wakes your partner up.

 

[K8MHZ]

Beside the sensors, other devices that need a neutral may be installed in a switch box, like an X-10 transmitter.

Therefore, I think the requirement of a neutral at switch boxes makes sense.

 

[kwired]

Beside the sensors, other devices that need a neutral may be installed in a switch box, like an X-10 transmitter.

Therefore, I think the requirement of a neutral at switch boxes makes sense.

Does make sense, but now we have to ask if it (and many other rules in more recent years) is a safety issue or a design issue? Then go to 90.1 and see if the code itself follows it's own stated purpose with some of these rules.

 

[GoldDigger]

Does make sense, but now we have to ask if it (and many other rules in more recent years) is a safety issue or a design issue? Then go to 90.1 and see if the code itself follows it's own stated purpose with some of these rules.

This one is convoluted in that as I understand it part of the reason for the change was that UL was not going to require those active devices to have instructions not to use the EGC as an operating current path unless the NEC first required a neutral to be available.
I would have thought that devices that used the EGC for their power would have been prohibited by the NEC in the first place, but apparently that was not sufficiently clear.

The fact that energy codes requiring retrofitting of presence detectors into existing buildings came along seems to have been a large part of it too.

All in all, a long and complicated story, and we may never really know every detail of it.

 

[kwired]

This one is convoluted in that as I understand it part of the reason for the change was that UL was not going to require those active devices to have instructions not to use the EGC as an operating current path unless the NEC first required a neutral to be available.
I would have thought that devices that used the EGC for their power would have been prohibited by the NEC in the first place, but apparently that was not sufficiently clear.

The fact that energy codes requiring retrofitting of presence detectors into existing buildings came along seems to have been a large part of it too.

All in all, a long and complicated story, and we may never really know every detail of it.

I understand all of those things that may be contributing to the rules. Still IMO not a safety problem but is a design problem. If NEC prohibits using EGC for current carrying then that is for safety, but designing equipment to need a current carrying conductor is still design issues. There are currently other codes that make us do certain things, yet is not in NEC, then there are things in NEC that probably belong in other codes. I have no problem with informational notes in the NEC to tell us that something may be required by another code. Just like NEC, not all places adopt every code that is published, some even amend those codes to essentially end up having their own code in a way.

 

[GoldDigger]

I understand all of those things that may be contributing to the rules. Still IMO not a safety problem but is a design problem. If NEC prohibits using EGC for current carrying then that is for safety, but designing equipment to need a current carrying conductor is still design issues. There are currently other codes that make us do certain things, yet is not in NEC, then there are things in NEC that probably belong in other codes. I have no problem with informational notes in the NEC to tell us that something may be required by another code. Just like NEC, not all places adopt every code that is published, some even amend those codes to essentially end up having their own code in a way.

I agree with you in principle, and just wanted to bring up the possibility that NFPA was under enough pressure from UL and from various members of the CMP that they were willing to compromise their principles on this one.

PS: During the original Iran crisis, the UN Secretary General went to Tehran to try to "mediate and achieve a compromise". The translation of his arrival speech into Persian said he was there to "meddle and get you to give up your principles."