SFR Stairway lighting

[be4jc]

I had a final inspection on a 2 story single family residence. At bottom of stairway was a typical snap switch. I flipped the switch and the light did not go on. I went up stairs and there was a dimmer switch. When I turned up the dimmer the stairway lights came on, and the snap switch at the bottom of the stairs would turn on & off the lights. I was wondering how many of you would consider this a safe and legal way of lighting up a stairway?
Note: I passed and finaled the house with the stairway switching this way.

 

[LarryFine]

As long as the dimmer is also a 3-way, and the pair are wired properly, there's no issue. "Just don't leave it fully dimmed."

 

[dlhoule]

As long as the dimmer is also a 3-way, and the pair are wired properly, there's no issue. "Just don't leave it fully dimmed."

Agreed, and of course nobody else will ever leave it fully dimmed. LOL:smile:

 

[77401]

Why would the stair way be any different from the family room 3way switch set up?

 

[LarryFine]

Why would the stair way be any different from the family room 3way switch set up?

It wouldn't. The question was aimed at the fact that leaving the dimmer dimmed makes the other 3-way ineffective.

 

[77401]

not necessarilly... the other 3way still performs as designed & installed.
If this is your arguement, then wouldn't all 3way dimmers be "ineffective" & should therefore be not code compliant?

What if the effect is to have the lights fully dimmed?

I had to double check my own 3way Diva dimmer, but at fully dimmed It still does have a light output. It is not off in the fully dimmed position.

In`ef*fect"ive (?), a. [Pref. in- not + effective: cf. F. ineffectif.]
Not effective; ineffectual; futile; inefficient; useless; as, an ineffective appeal.

 

[hmspe]

I had a final inspection on a 2 story single family residence. At bottom of stairway was a typical snap switch. I flipped the switch and the light did not go on. I went up stairs and there was a dimmer switch. When I turned up the dimmer the stairway lights came on, and the snap switch at the bottom of the stairs would turn on & off the lights. I was wondering how many of you would consider this a safe and legal way of lighting up a stairway?
Note: I passed and finaled the house with the stairway switching this way.

From the operation you describe this installation does not have a three way dimmer and a three way switch. If the lights are off and flipping the switch does not turn the lights on it does not meet the intent of the Code. I wouldn't pass it if I knew about it, but depending on how the switch and dimmer were initially set an inspector might not catch it -- I certainly wouldn't spend the time on an inspection to walk up and down multiple times to check all the combinations of switch positions.

Martin

 

[LarryFine]

From the operation you describe this installation does not have a three way dimmer and a three way switch. If the lights are off and flipping the switch does not turn the lights on it does not meet the intent of the Code.

Martin, that depends. If the installation is made up with a single-pole switch and a single-pole dimmer in series, it's definitely non-compliant.

However, if, once the dimmer is turned up, its switch and the one at the bottom of the stairs function as they should, there's no reason to fail it.

I did say "As long as the dimmer is also a 3-way, and the pair are wired properly, there's no issue." Obnoxious, maybe; illegal, no.

 

[hmspe]

However, if, once the dimmer is turned up, its switch and the one at the bottom of the stairs function as they should, there's no reason to fail it.

If the minimum possible setting on the dimmer was "dimmed to 0%" I'd have to disagree. Use a dimmer with a 10% minimum setting and it might be OK. 210.70(A)(2)(c) says says the purpose of the switch at each landing is to control the lighting outlets. If you flip the switch and the light doesn't come on because the dimmer is set to 0 the switch isn't controlling the light.

Martin

 

[77401]

If you flip the switch and the light doesn't come on because the dimmer is set to 0 the switch isn't controlling the light.

Martin

Oh but ins't it really controling it? Controlloing it at 0%?
Can you show me a dimmer that has a 0% dimming level? that is not off?
OK, I can personally vouch for Lutron Diva, Ariadni, & the spacer remotes in my house, These are all presets & even the Spacer has a really low minimun setting (guessing 2.37%) if I had to guess

But you are all overlooking the the intent of the code... of at least one wall switched controlled outlet.
HAVE any of you ever passed an inspection of a formal living room or even a bedroom, wired with a wall switch controlling a wall plug? Whats the difference? Dimmer with a 0% or wall plug with nothing plug into it?
Let me guess you'd turn down an inspection till something was plug in to the wall plug? GET REAL!!!

Forcrisake. what it no one ever plugs a light into the plug?

Do you honestly think dimmers should not be allowed by code?
Think real hard about this......

 

[allenwayne]

Without checking it out myself I`d risk saying that it was supposed to be a 3 way set up and made up wrong.Anyway you look at it if there are 6 or more risers then it must be able to be controlled at each landing,so if you turn the dimmer off and can`t light the stairway from the other end then it is a violation.210.70 2 (c)

 

[77401]

Without checking it out myself I`d risk saying that it was supposed to be a 3 way set up and made up wrong.

always possible it is hooked up wrong

Anyway you look at it if there are 6 or more risers then it must be able to be controlled at each landing,

Now I gotta ask where do you come up with this??? Risers being steps. A switch at each landing, even if the landing has no entrance to any room????

 

[dnem]

Oh but ins't it really controling it? Controlloing it at 0%?
Can you show me a dimmer that has a 0% dimming level? that is not off?
OK, I can personally vouch for Lutron Diva, Ariadni, & the spacer remotes in my house, These are all presets & even the Spacer has a really low minimun setting (guessing 2.37%) if I had to guess

But you are all overlooking the the intent of the code... of at least one wall switched controlled outlet.
HAVE any of you ever passed an inspection of a formal living room or even a bedroom, wired with a wall switch controlling a wall plug? Whats the difference? Dimmer with a 0% or wall plug with nothing plug into it?
Let me guess you'd turn down an inspection till something was plug in to the wall plug? GET REAL!!!

Forcrisake. what it no one ever plugs a light into the plug?

Do you honestly think dimmers should not be allowed by code?
Think real hard about this......

Hold on, before you get too excited, there's something else that has to be considered.

I know this is an NEC code question, so the answer is that the installation is NEC code compliant, but is there even one state in the US that doesn't have a state building code minimum lighting requirement on stairways ? In Ohio it's listed as one foot candle miniumum on each thread.

I honestly have never seen a dimmer on a stairway before, but if I did, I would fail the inspection because the electrical installation has to be complete as required by state building code. The installation isn't complete if it has to be changed to conform with building code requirements.

So in theory it passes NEC. I practice it fails inspection.

Note: I passed and finaled the house with the stairway switching this way.

BE4JC,
Now that you've passed the electrical, if the building inspector fails his final, with he be the one to go back to check if the dimmer is switched out for a regular, or will you have to go back ?

David

 

[dnem]

Anyway you look at it if there are 6 or more risers then it must be able to be controlled at each landing,

Now I gotta ask where do you come up with this??? Risers being steps. A switch at each landing, even if the landing has no entrance to any room????

If Allen means the very top and very bottom landings only, then he's correct.
Like you said, the requirement for a mid level landing switching only kicks in if there is an entrance to that landing that's separate from the stairs.

David

 

[allenwayne]

210.70 2 C -Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways there shall be at least one lighting outlet containing a switch shall be installed at each floor level,and landing levels that includes an entry way,to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floors has six RISERS or more.The exception allows a motion sensor in lieu of a switch.So this is where i got this.There is no mention of steps but risers are steps in laymans terms.So if there is a stairwy that has six risers ,then stops at a landing that has 6 risers to the next level there would have to be a switch at each and every landing.So an entrance to another room is not required in this case.Remember the code does not say room just floor level and a landing constitutes a floor level.Or am i missing something here???

 

[77401]

210.70 2 C -Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways there shall be at least one lighting outlet containing a switch shall be installed at each floor level,and landing levels that includes an entry way,to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floors has six RISERS or more.

Read it slower!
I'll break it up for you, as I feel your way out wrong in your interpretation. Plus it makes no common sense.

1)there shall be at least one lighting outlet containing a switch shall be installed at each floor level. A landing is not considered a floor level or my house would be a 7 story house.
2)and landing levels that includes an entry way. Is there an ENTRY on the landing?
3)where the stairway between floors has six RISERS or more.
What this means is if there is less than 6 risers between floors there is no need for the 3way switch at the top & bottom of the 5 steps or less.

You are so wrong, thinking that if on a single residence stairway with, lets say, Visualize this if you can, 2 landings between the first & second floor, with no other floors or entrys on the landings, and 7 risers/steps between each landing...OK? You would put another switch on each landing? resulting in 2 4way switches on the landing plus the 2 3ways at the top & bottom?

Your just messing with us right???

 

[infinity]

Read it slower!
I'll break it up for you, as I feel your way out wrong in your interpretation. Plus it makes no common sense.

1)there shall be at least one lighting outlet containing a switch shall be installed at each floor level. A landing is not considered a floor level or my house would be a 7 story house.
2)and landing levels that includes an entry way. Is there an ENTRY on the landing?
3)where the stairway between floors has six RISERS or more.
What this means is if there is less than 6 risers between floors there is no need for the 3way switch at the top & bottom of the 5 steps or less.

You are so wrong, thinking that if on a single residence stairway with, lets say, Visualize this if you can, 2 landings between the first & second floor, with no other floors or entrys on the landings, and 7 risers/steps between each landing...OK? You would put another switch on each landing? resulting in 2 4way switches on the landing plus the 2 3ways at the top & bottom?

Your just messing with us right???

I agree the requirement for a switch is only if the landing contains an entrance. Why should a stairway with 14 steps be any different than one with 7 steps, a landing, and 7 more steps?

 

[be4jc]

The lighting of a stairway is a life, health, safety Issue (Trip Hazard) i felt at the begining of this issue that if the dimmer would have been at the BOTTOM of the stairway I would not have accepted this (easier to trip going down than up) I am going to talk with the contractor today and put a stop to this practice immediatly.

 

[77401]

The lighting of a stairway is a life, health, safety Issue (Trip Hazard) i felt at the begining of this issue that if the dimmer would have been at the BOTTOM of the stairway I would not have accepted this (easier to trip going down than up) I am going to talk with the contractor today and put a stop to this practice immediatly.

Health? LIFE? your making me laugh!!!

I got a feeling you really serious. I wish you were my inspector, on my job.
I'd get a nut fighting you on this. I could keep quiet & install the dimmer the second you pull away from the curb on a final BUT.....Some of you just deserve to get it handed to you, for trying to reinterpret the code instead of just inforcing it. Is this just an EGO thing of pulling power for the AHJ thing?
You have no right to disallow a dimmer in a SFR on a stairway. I could see your point in a commercial building or tennant apartment, maybe.

Show me anywhere in the code, any exemption, where a dimmer is not permissable. Art#? ANYONE?
Show me or the dimmer stays !!!
Even if you do, the dimmer goes back the second the job is finaled. Didn't your wife teach you to pick your battles???

 

[dlhoule]

Health? LIFE? your making me laugh!!!

I got a feeling you really serious. I wish you were my inspector, on my job.
I'd get a nut fighting you on this. I could keep quiet & install the dimmer the second you pull away from the curb on a final BUT.....Some of you just deserve to get it handed to you, for trying to reinterpret the code instead of just inforcing it. Is this just an EGO thing of pulling power for the AHJ thing?
You have no right to disallow a dimmer in a SFR on a stairway. I could see your point in a commercial building or tennant apartment, maybe.

Show me anywhere in the code, any exemption, where a dimmer is not permissable. Art#? ANYONE?
Show me or the dimmer stays !!!
Even if you do, the dimmer goes back the second the job is finaled. Didn't your wife teach you to pick your battles???

Is that where you have learned everything? All my wife taught me was to say "I'm sorry" and "Yes, dear."