sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
- Thread starter wimpiec
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bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
wimpiec,
Could you please rephrase the question?
wimpiec,
Could you please rephrase the question?
flightline
Senior Member
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
i'm not sure either, but to digress a little, I have red-tagged many an installation of listed ceiling fan approved box, of all types, when the installer has decided that the supplied screws were too large in diameter and difficult to install. I spoke with the T&B/Steel City rep at the last NECA convention, and they confirmed that the supplied scrrews were how thew box obtained it'slisting, and use of anything less is a listing of the violation. I've seen drywall screws, roofing nails, and 16d nails. The installers get pretty p/o'd when they have to either set up scaffolding or crawl around above the ceiling joists to make repairs.
I was speaking to a home inspector friend of mine; who is actually one of the better inspectors that I know, teaches, and hold a supervising [master] electricians license. I discussed this with hin, and he re-inforced the argument that drywall screws lack the shear strength, and are can be to hydrogen embrittlement. He went on to illustrate this by asking me if I have ever noticed the head breaking from the threads when driving a long screw, or any screw into harder wood. The torque required may have been greater than design, or the hydrogen enbrittlement.
Now these ceiling fan rated boxes would seem to be more of a "live" load, and things of little weight, that do not generate vibration, and drywall too, are more "static" loads, with any stress incolved probably more related to pullout than shear.
i'm not sure either, but to digress a little, I have red-tagged many an installation of listed ceiling fan approved box, of all types, when the installer has decided that the supplied screws were too large in diameter and difficult to install. I spoke with the T&B/Steel City rep at the last NECA convention, and they confirmed that the supplied scrrews were how thew box obtained it'slisting, and use of anything less is a listing of the violation. I've seen drywall screws, roofing nails, and 16d nails. The installers get pretty p/o'd when they have to either set up scaffolding or crawl around above the ceiling joists to make repairs.
I was speaking to a home inspector friend of mine; who is actually one of the better inspectors that I know, teaches, and hold a supervising [master] electricians license. I discussed this with hin, and he re-inforced the argument that drywall screws lack the shear strength, and are can be to hydrogen embrittlement. He went on to illustrate this by asking me if I have ever noticed the head breaking from the threads when driving a long screw, or any screw into harder wood. The torque required may have been greater than design, or the hydrogen enbrittlement.
Now these ceiling fan rated boxes would seem to be more of a "live" load, and things of little weight, that do not generate vibration, and drywall too, are more "static" loads, with any stress incolved probably more related to pullout than shear.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
flightline
for ceiling fans I totally agree, it is not a static load, but for recessed lighting... 4 'sheetrock' screws securing the fixture seems to almost be overkill. Where is the STRESS that is going to exert enough force to make that fixture come out of the ceiling. We cannot design for improper installation pratices, so lets say the 4 sheetrock screws were installed properly, what do you think? Come to think of it a lot of the recessed fixtures come with nails.
Pierre
flightline
for ceiling fans I totally agree, it is not a static load, but for recessed lighting... 4 'sheetrock' screws securing the fixture seems to almost be overkill. Where is the STRESS that is going to exert enough force to make that fixture come out of the ceiling. We cannot design for improper installation pratices, so lets say the 4 sheetrock screws were installed properly, what do you think? Come to think of it a lot of the recessed fixtures come with nails.
Pierre
flightline
Senior Member
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
Pierre, I agree. As I said, I was hijacking the thread a bit, and I did say that for things of little weight, no vibration....static loads, but I guess I wasn't too elloquent and should have gone on to say that drywall screws would be OK. Hell. they drywall itself, to a point, in contact with the botom of the can face provides a good deal of support by itself.
I can also recall while working on a high-rise downtown, that we supported a huge number of incandescent recessed cans that had to be laid out in a number of exact circles, attaching them to the lathers [hat] channel with track screws. They were Chicago plenum rated, and 9 floors passed inspection.
[ July 03, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: flightline ]
Pierre, I agree. As I said, I was hijacking the thread a bit, and I did say that for things of little weight, no vibration....static loads, but I guess I wasn't too elloquent and should have gone on to say that drywall screws would be OK. Hell. they drywall itself, to a point, in contact with the botom of the can face provides a good deal of support by itself.
I can also recall while working on a high-rise downtown, that we supported a huge number of incandescent recessed cans that had to be laid out in a number of exact circles, attaching them to the lathers [hat] channel with track screws. They were Chicago plenum rated, and 9 floors passed inspection.
[ July 03, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: flightline ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
Sheetrock screws are hard (brittle) and should not be used for heavy loads. They would be OK for recessed can lights, but not for kitchen cabinte uppers, for example. For heavy loads a standard #10 square drive works well or better is a truss head. I like the square drive over drywall as the screw stays on the bit.
Sheetrock screws are hard (brittle) and should not be used for heavy loads. They would be OK for recessed can lights, but not for kitchen cabinte uppers, for example. For heavy loads a standard #10 square drive works well or better is a truss head. I like the square drive over drywall as the screw stays on the bit.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
Drywall screws for recessed cans.....Why not ???
For the most part when standard residential cans are mounted they have only the small tabs that are hammered into the lumber so dry wall screws are a secondary method of securing it,seagull has cans that have nails built in to secure them.Now with fan boxes,the plastic type are secured to the lumber to hold the box in place then 2 in. screws are provided to mount a fan.So the screw that actually mounts the box has no load on it.
If I found one of our guys mounting metal boxes or likewise with drywall screws I would blow a gasket !!!!To many people are under the misunderstanding that dry wall screws can do anything,I have seen panels,fixtures,smokes,devices etc. mounted with them.IMHO they should be used for what they were designed for dry wall !!!
Drywall screws for recessed cans.....Why not ???
For the most part when standard residential cans are mounted they have only the small tabs that are hammered into the lumber so dry wall screws are a secondary method of securing it,seagull has cans that have nails built in to secure them.Now with fan boxes,the plastic type are secured to the lumber to hold the box in place then 2 in. screws are provided to mount a fan.So the screw that actually mounts the box has no load on it.
If I found one of our guys mounting metal boxes or likewise with drywall screws I would blow a gasket !!!!To many people are under the misunderstanding that dry wall screws can do anything,I have seen panels,fixtures,smokes,devices etc. mounted with them.IMHO they should be used for what they were designed for dry wall !!!
wayne123
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
I use drywall screws to secure recessed fixtures because it is code in my area. I think it is a good idea during rough ins because of all the activity going on in the house, I would be afraid that if you didn't the construction beating and banging would vibrate the little tabs loose and would fall.
I use drywall screws to secure recessed fixtures because it is code in my area. I think it is a good idea during rough ins because of all the activity going on in the house, I would be afraid that if you didn't the construction beating and banging would vibrate the little tabs loose and would fall.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: sheetrock screws to mount recessed lights in residental
If I found one of our guys mounting metal boxes or likewise with drywall screws I would blow a gasket !!!!
Well, I think it depends on what type of box and to what it is to be mounted to. Though I agree that they shouldn't be used to mount a fan box, I've used sheetrock screws to fasten bracket boxes to studs for a million years and never had a problem. I like to use more than two per box but even so, I've never seen a screw fail after it's been driven.
Mounting surface boxes, straps and other equipment is another story. There I wouldn't use them but rather pan head sheet metal screws of a suitable size.
To say that sheetrock screws are only for hanging sheetrock is an injustice. They have become an all purpose fastener with a multitude of uses. To give them a bum rap because of hydrogen embrittlement is nonsense. Sheet metal screws are hardened also and I've see just as many of those break off while driving them.
Use the right size and right number of screws for the job and you won't have a problem.
If I found one of our guys mounting metal boxes or likewise with drywall screws I would blow a gasket !!!!
Well, I think it depends on what type of box and to what it is to be mounted to. Though I agree that they shouldn't be used to mount a fan box, I've used sheetrock screws to fasten bracket boxes to studs for a million years and never had a problem. I like to use more than two per box but even so, I've never seen a screw fail after it's been driven.
Mounting surface boxes, straps and other equipment is another story. There I wouldn't use them but rather pan head sheet metal screws of a suitable size.
To say that sheetrock screws are only for hanging sheetrock is an injustice. They have become an all purpose fastener with a multitude of uses. To give them a bum rap because of hydrogen embrittlement is nonsense. Sheet metal screws are hardened also and I've see just as many of those break off while driving them.
Use the right size and right number of screws for the job and you won't have a problem.
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