Shocking House

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ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
What I'm saying is that the charge is between you and the vehicle, and that touching earth will do little to discharge that potential.

You must make contact with the vehicle body to discharge the difference, as evidenced by the shock you feel when you get zapped.

Now, if the vehicle was somehow in contact with the earth, then your conductive contact with earth would discharge that potential.

Interesting discussion Larry,
I have never tried to discharge myself after getting out of the car - to ground. Plenty of times to the vehicle though.

While there is a potential difference beween you and the car , isn't there also one between you and the ground? You have come away from the vehicle with a charge as a result of friction between you and the seat fabric as you slide out of the vehicle.

I think if you measured yourself with an electro-static voltmeter (referenced to ground) that you would see a large potential difference.


Also consider that the head of a gas pump can become charged due to the fluid flow when dispensing gas (note that they now ground the head to minimize this). That head could then discharge to an isolated truck bed if previously charged by the friction of the fluid flow against the hose material.
 

McGowdog

Member
Location
Pueblo Colorado
Good point. We get shocked by static when we come into contact with an object of potential well above us or well below us, right? Specifically, the threshold of feeling this charge is about 3000 to 3500 volts, depending on a number of factors. If we see and feel the spark, that's noteworthy. If we hear it, even moreso. If we smell it, we really got zapped. If we feel the hair on our body raise and then discharge rapidly, we say "#$%*er!":cool:

So the tires can be presumed to be an insulator, but our bodies are very conductive with respect to the seats we are sitting in and the carpet/floor mats we rest our feet on. We are sometimes the source of charge as our clothes tribocharge (contact and separate) or even rub across the upholstry.

But sometimes we may touch something that's at a higher potential than us. The grounding in a vessel like an aircraft, ship, or car, is the chassis itself. If we're bonded to that chassis, we float along with it and never get shocked... until we get disconnected with it and touch it again or touch some other reference... aka the ground or earth?

I think we are looking at two distinct sources of charge potential here; the car's chassis and our bodies. We can soft ground our bodies to the chassis of the vehicle by wearing cotton clothing or even ESD smocks and footwear... hypothetically.

But what about the chassis to the ground or earth? Airplanes use static wicks to dissipate charges off the chassis or grounding system as they fly through the air. What if a car had a conductive carbon rope that drug (dragged?) across the road as it moved across the road surface? Would the asphalt/pavement be at a low enough resistance to earth to dissipate that charge? Would there be enough minerals and water content to do this? I know that a porous concrete slab can have enough water content in it in the non-winter months to be in the high static-dissipative range or below 1.0E9 ohms with respect to its surface (Point to Point or Ptt Point top to top) or from Point to Ground or RTG.

The problem with the higher resistance materials is that they don't easily enable charges to flow though them quickly enough or they don't move at all until something intervenes. Then we have to deal with charge fields and induction. I can induce a charge on an adjacent item if I merely discharge to a conductor rapidly in its presence.

Anywho, it usually takes layers of protection to best solve some of the ESD events that occur. Keep in mind that we only need to discharge things to below about 3000 volts to be effective for a perceived static shock.

Add: When I was talking about equipotential ground, this is what a field service guy does. When working on a computer, let's say, he unplugs it from line-thus no earth connection. But he/she sets the UUT on a static dissipative mat, stands/sits on the mat himself, aligns his tools on the mat, hooks the mat to the chassis of the UUT, then plugs his wrist strap to the chassis, now you have equipotential bonding.
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
While there is a potential difference beween you and the car , isn't there also one between you and the ground? You have come away from the vehicle with a charge as a result of friction between you and the seat fabric as you slide out of the vehicle.

I think if you measured yourself with an electro-static voltmeter (referenced to ground) that you would see a large potential difference.
That may be so, but it's irrelevant here. What matters is that you have generated a potential difference between your body and the vehicle's body. That's where those annoying shocks come from (and what sparked this sub-discussion.)

Nobody has ever complained about getting a shock from something other than the vehicle they just slid out of. Also remember we're talking about non-conductive surfaces: the plastic seat or nylon carpeting and the nylon jacket you're wearing.

The word 'electron' comes from 'elektron,' which is the Greek word for 'amber,' which was discovered many moons ago to create static electricity when rubbed with animal skins. We certainly don't consider amber or aniumal fur to be conductive.

I even get sparks and little shocks when I rub my cats in the winter. The rest of the year, the absolute humidity is high enough to dissipate most static charges before we get zapped. The fact that we don't wear jackets as much probably helps, too.

The point is that the voltage between your body and the earth, or the voltage between the vehicle and the earth, may be great, but it doesn't matter, because we're not bridging either pair of items with our bodies, so there's no shock being felt.

It's not so different from a floating power supply, such as a non-grounded Delta service. Either conductor may be at close to earth potential or thousands of volts away (or above, as you called it) from it. We only care about the potential between two lines.

Also consider that the head of a gas pump can become charged due to the fluid flow when dispensing gas (note that they now ground the head to minimize this). That head could then discharge to an isolated truck bed if previously charged by the friction of the fluid flow against the hose material.
Again, that's largely due to the tires acting as insulators between the truck and the earth. Gas hoses have had discharge properties for years. By the way, it was common years ago to see rubber strips, and even metal chains, dragging the ground under trucks and cars.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Good point. We get shocked by static when we come into contact with an object of potential well above us or well below us, right?
Above or below, in absolute terms (i.e., to earth), doesn't really matter. It's the difference bewteen the two bodies in question that matters. Either one could be grounded, or they both could be isolated. We presume the charge to be on the lesser-grounded body.

I think we are looking at two distinct sources of charge potential here; the car's chassis and our bodies. We can soft ground our bodies to the chassis of the vehicle by wearing cotton clothing or even ESD smocks and footwear... hypothetically.
That would do it.

But what about the chassis to the ground or earth? Airplanes use static wicks to dissipate charges off the chassis or grounding system as they fly through the air. What if a car had a conductive carbon rope that drug (dragged?) across the road as it moved across the road surface? Would the asphalt/pavement be at a low enough resistance to earth to dissipate that charge? Would there be enough minerals and water content to do this? I know that a porous concrete slab can have enough water content in it in the non-winter months to be in the high static-dissipative range or below 1.0E9 ohms with respect to its surface (Point to Point or Ptt Point top to top) or from Point to Ground or RTG.
As above, we don't care about the voltage between either body and the earth, because the shock we receive comes from the potential between our body and the vehicle body, and not either body to earth.

Plus, the anti-static straps and chains of days gone by didn't really benefit the driver of the car when exiting it, but they sure helped when handing money to toll-takers. Now, there are anti-static wires in the roadway just before the toll booth.

Add: When I was talking about equipotential ground, this is what a field service guy does. When working on a computer, let's say, he unplugs it from line-thus no earth connection. But he/she sets the UUT on a static dissipative mat, stands/sits on the mat himself, aligns his tools on the mat, hooks the mat to the chassis of the UUT, then plugs his wrist strap to the chassis, now you have equipotential bonding.
Actually, as far as static is concerned, there's no benefit to unplugging the UUT from the line; the chassis being grounded is a benefit. The conductive wrist-strap attached to the chassis is what is protecting sensitive components.

The chassis isolation from ground can be beneficial when using line-powered test equipment to reduce electric shock, but tying the work area and the technician to the chassis is what prevents component damage. As you said, it's the equipotential bonding, not the grounding, that minimizes static.
 

McGowdog

Member
Location
Pueblo Colorado
Well it's all according to ANSI/ESD S6.1-2005 page 5 section 5.2.3;

Equipotential Bonding: "Field service operations and other ESDS handling situations may not have access to ground (unplugged UUT). Equipotential bonding provides an ESD safe handling concept, as there is no difference in electrical potential (voltage) between interconnected items (person, UUT, mat).

Some people just don't work on equipment live when they don't have to. Seems like a good idea to me. In this case, charges are not being dissipated to earth, it's just that everything floats together, thus no potential difference and thus no ESD event.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
That may be so, but it's irrelevant here.

Larry here is some irrelevant data from a test I performed.

Using an Electrostatic voltmeter -referenced to earth ground.

1) Sit in car seat and get out while rubbing jeans on synthetic seat material.
2) My body measures +10Kv
3) Car body measures at 0v with respect to ground
4) Touch car briefly (with my body at 10kv) and my body discharges to +1Kv. Car body still reads 0 volts.

Perform steps 1,2,3 again.
4) now touch electrical ground briefly and I discharge. My body reads +1Kv.


5) Read charge on synthetic seat and it measures -10Kv. :D
Car body = 0 volts.
 
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