- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
At the risk of exposing my ignorance (which rarely goes obscured these days), what does this mean?
Shop Drawings
- Thread starter George Stolz
- Start date
- Status
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
means you are responsible for the prints as part of the bid..you need to submit prints of what you are going to do for approval and I would bet you are going to have to submit as built's to get final payment.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
I was supplied prints, though...?
Shop drawings or submittals are cut sheets specific to your equipment, usually prepared by the supplier of the equipment that you will be using for a particular job.
The engineer want them to make sure that you are using the equipment that they specified.
You need to make the purchase of the equipment that have them hold for release pending approval.
Once approved then you can make changes to the order based on the comments by the engineer and then release for production.
This can be a long process, so get the shop drawings as soon as possible and submitted to the engineer or you may get blamed for delays.
Also this could lead to change orders based on the comments.
The engineer want them to make sure that you are using the equipment that they specified.
You need to make the purchase of the equipment that have them hold for release pending approval.
Once approved then you can make changes to the order based on the comments by the engineer and then release for production.
This can be a long process, so get the shop drawings as soon as possible and submitted to the engineer or you may get blamed for delays.
Also this could lead to change orders based on the comments.
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Looks like a standard request for gear submittals, although the first sentence of E makes me wonder???
You are entering a new world.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
you were supplied prints, did they specify the manufacturer and equipment models? if not they want they are asking what the equipment is how the manufacture and the prints are going to align and what materials you are going to use so the can make sure you are going to meet their design specifications. I hope that makes sense.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
The goofy thing about this is that it is taking longer to read the silly specs than it will take to do the work - it's just hooking up a couple motors at a school. 
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Your prints may simply show a 60 amp disconnect or a panelboard. Shop drawings will usually show the specifics of the equipment that you intend to supply. We also submit shop drawings that contain the layout for electric closets, switchgear rooms and other things that usually require approval.
We even supply information on the types of boxes, wire, conduit, receptacles switches etc. for approval. This is actually a good thing. Don't want to install 500 snap switches and standard receptacles on a job and then find out that they were supposed to be Decora. This will usually be cleared up when they approve your submittals.
We even supply information on the types of boxes, wire, conduit, receptacles switches etc. for approval. This is actually a good thing. Don't want to install 500 snap switches and standard receptacles on a job and then find out that they were supposed to be Decora. This will usually be cleared up when they approve your submittals.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
I know I blew that statement. lets start over.
they are after is what equipment and materials you bid and the specs of said items so they can verify that it is going to meet the requirements for the bid.
they are after is what equipment and materials you bid and the specs of said items so they can verify that it is going to meet the requirements for the bid.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
I also believe it aids in proper SCCR ratings as well,
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
It means that the author of that spec does not know how to write a coherent sentence. :roll:
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
lmao :grin:
Look in the spec. book or on print it may spell out all kinds of stuff, like pipe types and locations of use, wire type,
250 volt or 600 volt NEMA 1,3R, 4, 12, spare fuses, lamps,H.O.A./pilots, etc.
Then after you are used to looking for all this, you will see it is regurgitated over and over many times having nothing to do with your job.
250 volt or 600 volt NEMA 1,3R, 4, 12, spare fuses, lamps,H.O.A./pilots, etc.
Then after you are used to looking for all this, you will see it is regurgitated over and over many times having nothing to do with your job.
Leestarkweather
Member
- Location
- Los Angeles CA
Ten years ago I bid a big chiller room upgrade project for a building in a regional shopping center. Had to start on 1-3-2000 and finish B4 valentine's Day. (E) 1964 Zinsco 5000A 480V Service having (2) 2500A GE Air Break CB's that were to be rebuilt one at a time with new Electronic Metering, etc. and new 1600A trip, as one of 2 chillers being changed out at a time. Also (2) 250HP Motors and (2) `100HP Motors (VFD's supplied by Pump Vendor) being fed from old Zinsco MC Centers, and (2) new Cutler Hammer MCC's.
Bid job in August 1999, and spec book (a cut and paste of many different jobs, even some old job names at bottom of some pages) was not consistent or coherent. Some parts called for EMT with SS Conn/Coupl, other parts called for RGC and all threaded fittings.
This was bid to a (very large) HVAC contractor who was the prime. I wanted to keep him as a client more than I wanted this particular job. He had gone in with a budget of $253K for the electrical work--the only way it was possible was to do it with EMT and SS fittings. I CLEARLY stated in my bid to him that I was using those materials, and even Xeroxed and sent him the higlited pages of the spec book that conflicted between EMT and RGC (each 1600A Chiller Feed had 4 4" with (3) 600MCM plus ground wires, at 22 Feet AFF and about 54" wide access aisles). Just a BIT of difference in Labor (much less materials) in RGC vs. EMT.
Got a P.O. from HVAC contractor, and I submitted "shop Drawings' of every material being used, showing all the Regal (now Bridgeport) SS Fitting, the EMT, every hanger, bolt, rod, etc. Plus Mfg. Submittals on new MCC's. MCC dwgs. came back approved and I released order for them (mid October). Around Nov. 15 all other shop drawings came back "rejected--not to spec".
This is when the s___ hits the fan.
Big pow wow--engineer is ready to cram spec book down my throat, Owner's rep (westfield shopping centers) is insisting on RGC/all threaded connections, etc. Problem was, I was out front on all of my choices, and the engineer shut up within 5 minutes of us all reviewing the spec book. Turns out HVAC prime had forwarded all my documentation to the Owner and the Engineer at time of bid acceptance, and neither had bothered to look at it.
So--it probably saved my 20 year old (at the time) corp. from being sued or forced thru litigation to do a lot more (at least $100K). for free. We did the job in 6 weeks, start to finish, and the whole time the owner's rep was telling me daily how disappointed he was that I wasn't installing threaded GRC, as it would be more likely to last 30 years. I told him every day that a spec book is only as good as it's writer (or cut and paste assistant), that I had been in business for 20 years and never tried to cheat or even neglect to point out inconsistencies prior to bid acceptance, and that he was getting exactly what he was paying for and to the budget that he had created.
2005 they tore down the whole building, including chiller plant, and built a new Nordstroms. So much for needing RGC to last 30 years.
When in doubt, a 3-4 hour session of xeroxing catalog pages (or nowdays downloading PDF's from mfg. sites) may save hundreads of thousands of dollars.
Bid job in August 1999, and spec book (a cut and paste of many different jobs, even some old job names at bottom of some pages) was not consistent or coherent. Some parts called for EMT with SS Conn/Coupl, other parts called for RGC and all threaded fittings.
This was bid to a (very large) HVAC contractor who was the prime. I wanted to keep him as a client more than I wanted this particular job. He had gone in with a budget of $253K for the electrical work--the only way it was possible was to do it with EMT and SS fittings. I CLEARLY stated in my bid to him that I was using those materials, and even Xeroxed and sent him the higlited pages of the spec book that conflicted between EMT and RGC (each 1600A Chiller Feed had 4 4" with (3) 600MCM plus ground wires, at 22 Feet AFF and about 54" wide access aisles). Just a BIT of difference in Labor (much less materials) in RGC vs. EMT.
Got a P.O. from HVAC contractor, and I submitted "shop Drawings' of every material being used, showing all the Regal (now Bridgeport) SS Fitting, the EMT, every hanger, bolt, rod, etc. Plus Mfg. Submittals on new MCC's. MCC dwgs. came back approved and I released order for them (mid October). Around Nov. 15 all other shop drawings came back "rejected--not to spec".
This is when the s___ hits the fan.
Big pow wow--engineer is ready to cram spec book down my throat, Owner's rep (westfield shopping centers) is insisting on RGC/all threaded connections, etc. Problem was, I was out front on all of my choices, and the engineer shut up within 5 minutes of us all reviewing the spec book. Turns out HVAC prime had forwarded all my documentation to the Owner and the Engineer at time of bid acceptance, and neither had bothered to look at it.
So--it probably saved my 20 year old (at the time) corp. from being sued or forced thru litigation to do a lot more (at least $100K). for free. We did the job in 6 weeks, start to finish, and the whole time the owner's rep was telling me daily how disappointed he was that I wasn't installing threaded GRC, as it would be more likely to last 30 years. I told him every day that a spec book is only as good as it's writer (or cut and paste assistant), that I had been in business for 20 years and never tried to cheat or even neglect to point out inconsistencies prior to bid acceptance, and that he was getting exactly what he was paying for and to the budget that he had created.
2005 they tore down the whole building, including chiller plant, and built a new Nordstroms. So much for needing RGC to last 30 years.
When in doubt, a 3-4 hour session of xeroxing catalog pages (or nowdays downloading PDF's from mfg. sites) may save hundreads of thousands of dollars.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
An engineering firm had me come out to their offices to do some remodel electrical work a good while back. They were a firm I had to submit many shop drawing packages, user manuals, submittals, as built drawings, and a lot of other hoopla to them during projects I had done for the state govt. While I was in their facilities, I got to see the inside process of submittal review done by them. It consisted of some very low level hires, rubber stamping page after page of submittal books and then carrying them out to the front office where the head honcho's signed cover sheets. Then they sent the stuff back out to the contractors.. Nobody of any significance or engineering level looked at anything submitted. Total waste of paper and time. But of course they get paid handsomely to "review" the submitted documents.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
laketime
Senior Member
I worked for a shop that had a wholesale house make a spec book up of material they wanted to use on a project for approval. The book had about every product you would ever want to use on a commercial project. We would submit the binder for approval and get it approved every time. On every job that I worked on the subject would somehow come up and almost every time they would admit to never even opening the thing just stamping approved on it.
Bigrig
Member
- Location
- Dayton, OH
Sad to hear that so many engineering firms do not properly review shop drawings. It is the engineer's last chance to catch mistakes before they hit the jobsite. In our group we often have the young engineers and engineers-to-be check them (with supervision) as it is one of the essential learning tools about design on paper versus what actually works in the field. It also shows them how often specifications are NOT read (or at least followed).
- Status