Short circuit fault current calculation -infinite bus

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ramyadevi89

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Location
Redmond,WA
Hi What is the best way to calculate the short circuit fault current using SKM- model the infinite bus or use the available fault current from the utility. Which will give the worst case results? How to model the infinite bus in SKM?
 

Julius Right

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Engineer Power Station Physical Design Retired
The infinite bus [power] [= zero system impedance] is the worst, of course.
 

David Castor

Senior Member
Location
Washington, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The infinite bus will result in higher fault current results than the actual system impedance. Whether or not that is the "worst case" depends on what you are calculating. If you are checking the AIC ratings of the devices, then the infinite bus indeed gives you the worst case maximum. But if you are calculating arc-flash incident energy, the maximum fault current does not necessarily produce the maximum incident energy. So you can't assume that the infinite bus will always give you the worst-case arc-flash incident energy.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Hi What is the best way to calculate the short circuit fault current using SKM- model the infinite bus or use the available fault current from the utility. Which will give the worst case results? How to model the infinite bus in SKM?

You really should start with a calculator and text book on power system analysis before using the software.

The BEST way starts with what assumptions you are making. The “best” software of course is some variation of EMTP. SKM is a far cry from the accuracy of that system. But that’s for transients and brings us to the fundamental issue: what are you trying to do?

ALL short circuit calculation standards began back before calculators existed, when the calculations were done mostly with slide rules. And this there are a LOT of simplifications and assumptions. You need to know what’s going on or you will produce garbage results as well as waste a lot of time and money. There are TONS of engineering firms out there doing just that. What you are paying for is a trained monkey and a keyboard. All of their results are utter garbage. And as far as software goes SKM in particular is extremely buggy so you better be prepared to check over whatever results it produces.

Reason I’m saying this is you are asking an engineering question that is basic to understanding short circuit analysis on a forum for electricians, not engineers.

Answer: it depends. Utilities often give you crap data that is just plain wrong. So you need to be able to evaluate their claims. Often it’s just an infinite bus bases result. So before going further the “utility” number is often clearly wrong. Second is that inductive loads and shielded cable or overhead lines can often have as great or greater influence on the results than just transformers and the loads with long lines. But in general if you are modeling for short circuit rating purposes then infinite bus and ignoring impedance gets you to a quick answer and doesn’t even need SKM and you can adjust it for cables, motors, and transformers with some simple rules of thumb. Chances are though this results in way over sizing a lot of equipment. Once you get above certain AIC ratings costs explode. There is a big jump from 35 kA to 65 kA for instance in breakers.

If however you are trying to size for breaker settings or arc flash overestimation is a huge FAIL. It will result in underestimating everything. This is a huge safety problem because arc flash results can easily be many times the estimated result. However inductive effects will have little effect except from a simple impedance point of view (we don’t care about transient conditions).

Not going to write a book in this post but just saying if you are asking this question you shouldn’t be using SKM. Pay the money and take the 1-2 week training classes out there or take a semester class at a local college. Do NOT waste everyone’s time being another trained keyboard monkey, garbage in is garbage out.

I would say 90% of the engineering firm cal a out there aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. Even the Fuse Handbook point to point method is easier.
 

MyCleveland

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Answer: it depends. Utilities often give you crap data that is just plain wrong. So you need to be able to evaluate their claims. Often it’s just an infinite bus bases result. So before going further the “utility” number is often clearly wrong. Second is that inductive loads and shielded cable or overhead lines can often have as great or greater influence on the results than just transformers and the loads with long lines. But in general if you are modeling for short circuit rating purposes then infinite bus and ignoring impedance gets you to a quick answer and doesn’t even need SKM and you can adjust it for cables, motors, and transformers with some simple rules of thumb. Chances are though this results in way over sizing a lot of equipment. Once you get above certain AIC ratings costs explode. There is a big jump from 35 kA to 65 kA for instance in breakers.


I would say 90% of the engineering firm cal a out there aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. Even the Fuse Handbook point to point method is easier.
Paul
Hope you will have a good holiday.
I deleted most of your post....hoping you could expand on the highlighted points.

HL 1: shielded cable impact ?
overhead lines...you are referring to overhead utility secondary conductors?

HL 2: easier as compared to?
 
Is there any significant difference these days
I would guess for factory ordered panel boards with breakers not much cost difference going to 65k. Maybe going above 65k could be a significant price jump, but I have not specifically compared a factory quote with the two options. A few years ago I had a job where the utility quoted fault current was just under 100k, requiring 100k mains. I went in the vault and got the actual data and it was about 50K going off data plate (still infinite primary though). I did this because I assumed it would behoove me to be at 65k or under, although like I said, I didn't actually get a quote for both options.

I just looked at a few of the online places:

A Siemens qrh23b200 is 25k three pole 200A, 240v breaker, their most common general purpose breaker, about $640-$730

Looks the hqr23b200, the 65k version, is about $740-$800. So not much more.
 

wbdvt

Senior Member
Location
Rutland, VT, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
I am intending to find the AIC rating of the panels and other distribution equipment
First, there is no AIC rating of a panel. The rating of the panel is called an SCCR. AIC ratings are on overcurrent protective devices such as breakers.

Secondly, to find the ratings you need to look at the labels on the equipment as it is the manufacturer that determines the ratings, not something you calculate.

And Paul is correct as it sounds like you were given some software to use without a basic understanding of power systems and how to model. I would suggest, like Paul did, you step away from the keyboard and open a book on power system analysis and short circuit calculations before using the softward.
 
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