Showing Lighting Controls on Drawings

[steve66]

Lighting controls have obviously become much more complicated than they used to be.

Has anyone found a good way to show exactly what you want on a bid set of drawings?

I know manufacturers usually provide detailed shop drawings that show wiring and all the devices and connections. But they can't do that until they understand what I'm expecting.

Its easy to show all the power wiring, and device locations. But that doesn't convey which lights make up a zone, or which switches and sensors control which zone.

And then there are also many different options for each zone: manual on, auto on, time control, daylight control, dimming, and on and on.

So what is the easiest and best way to show this?

 

[tw1156]

Lighting controls have obviously become much more complicated than they used to be.

Has anyone found a good way to show exactly what you want on a bid set of drawings?

I know manufacturers usually provide detailed shop drawings that show wiring and all the devices and connections. But they can't do that until they understand what I'm expecting.

Its easy to show all the power wiring, and device locations. But that doesn't convey which lights make up a zone, or which switches and sensors control which zone.

And then there are also many different options for each zone: manual on, auto on, time control, daylight control, dimming, and on and on.

So what is the easiest and best way to show this?

Honestly I know your frustration. The method I've found that works the best is a room matrix (excel sheet for example). It conveys the intent for the control of the room while allowing multiple manufacturers to provide bids to them. While it can be cumbersome depending on how large of a space you have, it cleans up the drawing from having to show a proprietary (nlight) controls, gadgets, widgets, thingamajigs, and other things that clutter up the drawing in addition to low voltage cabling, etc. The room matrix conveys the intent and it makes it easier to check when it comes time to walking the site.

 

[steve66]

Honestly I know your frustration. The method I've found that works the best is a room matrix (excel sheet for example). It conveys the intent for the control of the room while allowing multiple manufacturers to provide bids to them. While it can be cumbersome depending on how large of a space you have, it cleans up the drawing from having to show a proprietary (nlight) controls, gadgets, widgets, thingamajigs, and other things that clutter up the drawing in addition to low voltage cabling, etc. The room matrix conveys the intent and it makes it easier to check when it comes time to walking the site.

That's funny. I'd never thought of using a schedule before, but it did occur to me while writing that post. It made me wonder if anyone else was using a schedule or matrix.

 

[tw1156]

That's funny. I'd never thought of using a schedule before, but it did occur to me while writing that post. It made me wonder if anyone else was using a schedule or matrix.

It solves so many issues and questions from the contractor in the field. It makes it very easy for conveying intent of control for each space. Good luck on using it on your next project!

 

[steve66]

Sounds a lot better than what I've been doing. On my last project, I actually started keynoting some rooms, and typing out what I wanted for each room.

Too cumbersome for more than a couple of rooms that need anything more than a simple basic sensor and switch. But thinking about that is when I started thinking about a schedule or matrix. Kind of like the "Division of Responsibility" matrix that you see on all the retail store drawings that lists what is provided by the contractor, the landlord, or the tenant.

I'm not sure exactly what this schedule is going to look like, but its got to be better than what I've been doing.

 

[victor.cherkashi]

I use schedule. 1st column - type or number of room. 2nd column - description of control, manual on, 100% automatic on, 50% automatic on, dimming or on/off, daylight zone, photocell, time clock. 3rd column - specification of device of I can or want to specify. I usually indicate zone of control (a, b, c, ...) and location of control on lighting plan. type of emergency power also effectes pricing.

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[JoeStillman]

These are all great ideas and we are wrestling with the same questions right now.

It just seems to me that we just wrote $1,000 worth of lighting controls into the code so we can save $0.10 worth of electricity. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[victor.cherkashi]

Agree, Codemakers went too far with lighting controls, especially ASHRAE

These are all great ideas and we are wrestling with the same questions right now.

It just seems to me that we just wrote $1,000 worth of lighting controls into the code so we can save $0.10 worth of electricity. What's wrong with this picture?

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[augie47]

These are all great ideas and we are wrestling with the same questions right now.

It just seems to me that we just wrote $1,000 worth of lighting controls into the code so we can save $0.10 worth of electricity. What's wrong with this picture?

Nothing wrong with the picture if you happen to be a lighting control manufacturer

 

[tw1156]

Agree, Codemakers went too far with lighting controls, especially ASHRAE

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The entire purpose of the lighting controls is to conserve energy. My thought process would be as we see more renewable energy sources used on projects, will that permit the exemption of controls in the future? I understand there's still the hard cost of the components for the renewable system, but in the 'spirit of the code' it would make sense that the use of controls in the future would be negated by this fact.

 

[drktmplr12]

We show a few standard risers for the different types; occ sensors, daylight harvest, room controllers etc. then show the approximate location of each device. Granted I exclusively on industrial facilities so complicating lighting controls are the exception. Include a schedule and "or equal" and tell the contractor in notes if they supply something different they have to make all adjustments necessary (including conduits and wire) at no additional cost, for a complete and working lighting control system whose performance meets or exceeds that which is specified.

 

[lielec11]

Ever worked in NYC and had to deal with the Energy Conservation Code folks there? Count your blessings if you haven't... talk about going too far with controls, it's out of hand. Not sure who is making money on this besides the obvious controls manufacturers but the requirements are way overdone even for small spaces.

 

[Fulthrotl]

That's funny. I'd never thought of using a schedule before, but it did occur to me while writing that post. It made me wonder if anyone else was using a schedule or matrix.

yep. common. describes what the customer wants to sing and dance, and when.
a functional description.
in california, T24 requirements may then cause that to be modified, occasionally.

"you can't do that"

"it says here i can!"

"i don't care. it says here in part 6, you can't"

"the engineer put it RIGHT HERE!"

"the engineer is a 22 year old autocad driver in billings montana,
who is doing this on his laptop in a starbucks, on contract with the
PE. your move."

" "

" "

"well, i guess we could do that.... it'll take ten minutes to program."

"awesome. when that is done, here is your T24 compliance certification."

 

[Fulthrotl]

Nothing wrong with the picture if you happen to be a lighting control manufacturer

lutron is alive and well, thank you.

 

[steve66]

We show a few standard risers for the different types; occ sensors, daylight harvest, room controllers etc. then show the approximate location of each device. Granted I exclusively on industrial facilities so complicating lighting controls are the exception. Include a schedule and "or equal" and tell the contractor in notes if they supply something different they have to make all adjustments necessary (including conduits and wire) at no additional cost, for a complete and working lighting control system whose performance meets or exceeds that which is specified.

I see you are using lower case letters for zones. We used to do that sometimes with standard switches, and I had also thought about going back to that.

I found out on my last project that labeling switches can become a challenge too. First it started with a simple "D" for dimming. Then I added some "3D" notations for three way. But then I wanted some switches to cover two or three zones. Wait, I've already used 3 for 3-way. Also, This one switch needs 1 zone of three way dimming, and one zone of 3 way on/off, with another basic on/off. How the heck do I label that?

I guess I could label something like 3Da-3b-c. I guess its doable, but very confusing. Especially if the client wants some preset scenes on top of everything else.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Ever worked in NYC and had to deal with the Energy Conservation Code folks there? Count your blessings if you haven't... talk about going too far with controls, it's out of hand. Not sure who is making money on this besides the obvious controls manufacturers but the requirements are way overdone even for small spaces.

"pssst.... ever been to california?"
"i don't think he's been to california yet..."
"let's put the dimming requirements for hardscape lighting up here for interpretation"
"NO! for the love of God, you'll kill the man!"
"he seems pretty strong. i bet he will just wimper and turn away.... no permanent neurological damage...."


the voices in my head are particularly loud today..... apologies.
for anyone wondering, the green highlighter won.

 

[tw1156]

Want to know how to solve all of this in the future? We need to make a return back to task lighting. Task lighting in the energy code is exempt. Provide minimal general lighting with some EM and be done with it. It will then trigger less luminaires in the space, and in turn, also be exempt for portions of the energy code due to wattage/sq.ft being below certain thresholds. I'm thinking the old 5fc requirement from 1903 will do just fine.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm thinking the old 5fc requirement from 1903 will do just fine.

were you going to specify electric or kerosene torches?

if kerosene, specify swiss coffee for the paint color. it won't show
the soot as much.

 

[tw1156]

were you going to specify electric or kerosene torches?

if kerosene, specify swiss coffee for the paint color. it won't show
the soot as much.

I like your style of paint selection Fulthrotl; you may have a bit of Architect in you. We'll call it the Scrooge lighting line and make the lamps moveable so that way we'll need to wire the whole area as hazardous classification. Surely that'll save them money over those pesky lighting controls.

 

[Adamjamma]

were you going to specify electric or kerosene torches?

if kerosene, specify swiss coffee for the paint color. it won't show
the soot as much.

does it work for the ikea lanterns as well as my yellow lanterns are no longer yellow?