Siding
- Thread starter czarcone
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Siding
IMO, there is no requirement to ground aluminum siding.
IMO, there is no requirement to ground aluminum siding.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Siding
) tells me he will not call the POCO for reconnect until I ground the siding because "it is likely to become energized"
I agree with you until the inspector (who is never wrongOriginally posted by charlie:
IMO, there is no requirement to ground aluminum siding.
) tells me he will not call the POCO for reconnect until I ground the siding because "it is likely to become energized" Re: Siding
250.4(A)(4) requires electrically conductive materials likely to be energized to be connected to the electrical supply source to establish an effective ground-fault current path.
It would be up to the AHJ to determine if this was the case for your siding. The AHJ should look at the manufacturer's installation instructions, and consider if any lighting or outlets are cut into the siding.
250.4(A)(4) requires electrically conductive materials likely to be energized to be connected to the electrical supply source to establish an effective ground-fault current path.
It would be up to the AHJ to determine if this was the case for your siding. The AHJ should look at the manufacturer's installation instructions, and consider if any lighting or outlets are cut into the siding.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Siding
Sounds right, another reference at 250.116 FPN
Bill
Dean,
Sounds right, another reference at 250.116 FPN
Bill
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Siding
Continuing along that thought, isn't the code only the minimum requirements? This would suggest that the AHJ has the authority to expand on the code. The real issue here would be his/her consistency from one job to the next.
Bob
Is it possible the key word here is "likely"? The code doesn't appear to use the word possibly so maybe then the question is how is it likely? To me, likely means that the risk is high. How many buildings with aluminum or steel siding become energized, aside from possibly a lightning strike, in which case the grounding electrode conductor will probably not be adequate to handle the current anyway? I suppose it would be a judgement call by the AHJ?
Continuing along that thought, isn't the code only the minimum requirements? This would suggest that the AHJ has the authority to expand on the code. The real issue here would be his/her consistency from one job to the next.
Bob
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
Re: Siding
I've heard about siding becoming energized in cases where there was a ground-fault in outdoor receptacles or light fixtures. However, in all those cases there was not a proper equipment ground in the receptacle/light fixture that would have cleared the fault.
Seems to me if every box mounted to the siding is properly grounded, as they should be in the first place, it is very unlikely that the siding would ever become energized.
-John
I've heard about siding becoming energized in cases where there was a ground-fault in outdoor receptacles or light fixtures. However, in all those cases there was not a proper equipment ground in the receptacle/light fixture that would have cleared the fault.
Seems to me if every box mounted to the siding is properly grounded, as they should be in the first place, it is very unlikely that the siding would ever become energized.
-John
Re: Siding
I agree big john, if the electrical devices have EGC, it would be impossible for the siding to be energized from that source. But, how about the service conductors? If there is an OH SDL attached to the building at a househook, is there a possibility of accidental energization? How about lightning? What is the potential for lightning strikes in this neck of the woods? Bonding strips along aluminum siding was once the SOP for all siding jobs (pre-vinyl) And was a major selling point for asbestos siding at the time, too.
I agree big john, if the electrical devices have EGC, it would be impossible for the siding to be energized from that source. But, how about the service conductors? If there is an OH SDL attached to the building at a househook, is there a possibility of accidental energization? How about lightning? What is the potential for lightning strikes in this neck of the woods? Bonding strips along aluminum siding was once the SOP for all siding jobs (pre-vinyl) And was a major selling point for asbestos siding at the time, too.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Siding
How would you bond the siding system on a typical dwelling unit? The different pieces and sections that make of the siding system are not solidly connected to each other. You would have to bond each and every piece to prevent the siding system from becomming energized.
Don
How would you bond the siding system on a typical dwelling unit? The different pieces and sections that make of the siding system are not solidly connected to each other. You would have to bond each and every piece to prevent the siding system from becomming energized.
Don
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Siding
Thanks, Don. I wanted to stay out of this one. I had hoped that someone else would make that observation, so that I wouldn't have to. I could not think of anything nice to say about an Inspector that thought the siding was likely to become energized, so I elected to say nothing at all. Actually, I'm glad. Now I don't have to look up the spelling of the word "ludicrous."
Thanks, Don. I wanted to stay out of this one. I had hoped that someone else would make that observation, so that I wouldn't have to. I could not think of anything nice to say about an Inspector that thought the siding was likely to become energized, so I elected to say nothing at all. Actually, I'm glad. Now I don't have to look up the spelling of the word "ludicrous."
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Siding
I have only once been required to do this.
The inspector made us put a 6 awg around each corner of the siding connecting one wall to the other.
We did this by using lugs and 1/4"-20 nut and bolts.
This was the only way he would let the POCO tie in the service change we did.
It made no sense whatsoever to me, but it was cheap and easy to do. :roll:
A voice of reason, thank you.
I have only once been required to do this.
The inspector made us put a 6 awg around each corner of the siding connecting one wall to the other.
We did this by using lugs and 1/4"-20 nut and bolts.
This was the only way he would let the POCO tie in the service change we did.
It made no sense whatsoever to me, but it was cheap and easy to do. :roll:
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
Re: Siding
Iwire,
I'm assuming you also hooked the #6 to an EGC or something similar, yes/no? Are we talking about how to properly ground siding so that it will clear a fault, or are we talking about simply bonding it all together?
Thanks.
-John
Iwire,
I'm assuming you also hooked the #6 to an EGC or something similar, yes/no? Are we talking about how to properly ground siding so that it will clear a fault, or are we talking about simply bonding it all together?
Thanks.
-John
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Siding
Sounds like a Bond job to me
Shaken, not stirred
Sounds like a Bond job to me
Shaken, not stirred
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Siding
iwire, I wonder if the 6AWG bond wire is still there? A homeowner would be tempted to remove it.
iwire, I wonder if the 6AWG bond wire is still there? A homeowner would be tempted to remove it.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Siding
I remember doing as Bob described when I was an apprentice. We did a bunch of houses all in one town. Quirky inspector perhaps?
I remember doing as Bob described when I was an apprentice. We did a bunch of houses all in one town. Quirky inspector perhaps?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Siding
I was recently involved with an engineering firm that was told by the jurisdiction to bond the siding on a nursing home they were designing. It came down to the siding manufacturer's answer. They said it was virtually impossible to 'bond/ground' the siding and the case was dropped.
Grounding the siding for lightning is a joke!
Any inspector who wants bonding around the corners of the house is really saying "I'm the boss here, so do as I say" I mean he has a very big ego, self centered, etc...
Pierre
I was recently involved with an engineering firm that was told by the jurisdiction to bond the siding on a nursing home they were designing. It came down to the siding manufacturer's answer. They said it was virtually impossible to 'bond/ground' the siding and the case was dropped.
Grounding the siding for lightning is a joke!
Any inspector who wants bonding around the corners of the house is really saying "I'm the boss here, so do as I say"
I mean he has a very big ego, self centered, etc...Pierre
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Siding
I do not remember it was 18 - 20 years ago while I was an apprentice.
I got sent around bonding the corners, I do not remember what the boss was doing.
Tom
The wire and lugs where out of view under the bottom edge of the siding all you could see was the head of the bolt.
Scott This for me was in Lynn around 84 I think.
I just do not understand what it would do.
If as John has said the fixtures and outlets cut into the siding are properly wired that would not be a source of energizing the siding.
If we are talking about clearing a fault from the SE running down the siding I would think we would just blow a hole in the siding where the bond is attached.
John,
I do not remember it was 18 - 20 years ago while I was an apprentice.
I got sent around bonding the corners, I do not remember what the boss was doing.
Tom
The wire and lugs where out of view under the bottom edge of the siding all you could see was the head of the bolt.
Scott This for me was in Lynn around 84 I think.
I just do not understand what it would do.
If as John has said the fixtures and outlets cut into the siding are properly wired that would not be a source of energizing the siding.
If we are talking about clearing a fault from the SE running down the siding I would think we would just blow a hole in the siding where the bond is attached.
Re: Siding
I have actually seen siding "energized". A siding nail hit a romex and pierced right thru to the copper (hot only obviously). Seeing how nothing was grounding the siding and the nail only hit the hot the breaker wouldn't trip. Problem was found by the "gutter guy" on an aluminum ladder, It was a misting rainy day and after he got nailed about 3 times and he lost his temper and hit the garage 3 or 4 times in a fit of rage he refused to finish the job (can?t blame him). My neighbor came and got me to look at his problem, as we were walking over I told him the gutter installer must be nut?s because there was no way the siding was energized, boy was I wrong! There was enough ?power? on the siding to pull in a solenoid style voltage tester to about 95 to 100 (a wiggins). Fluke meter said 110vac. Siding to earth ground. So, Never say NEVER!
I have actually seen siding "energized". A siding nail hit a romex and pierced right thru to the copper (hot only obviously). Seeing how nothing was grounding the siding and the nail only hit the hot the breaker wouldn't trip. Problem was found by the "gutter guy" on an aluminum ladder, It was a misting rainy day and after he got nailed about 3 times and he lost his temper and hit the garage 3 or 4 times in a fit of rage he refused to finish the job (can?t blame him). My neighbor came and got me to look at his problem, as we were walking over I told him the gutter installer must be nut?s because there was no way the siding was energized, boy was I wrong! There was enough ?power? on the siding to pull in a solenoid style voltage tester to about 95 to 100 (a wiggins). Fluke meter said 110vac. Siding to earth ground. So, Never say NEVER!
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