Siemens dual purpose breakers

[Audubon94]

Is anyone else having issues with these breakers tripping with vacuums and Frigidare appliances? Or could it be because the electrician didn’t pigtail the outlets. Or perhaps poor electrical work?

 

[LarryFine]

Welcome to the forum.

We can only answer questions based on correct installations, unless we're there to do a troubleshoot.

If the tripping is load-specific, and some loads work, then we must presume the installation is correct.

 

[Little Bill]

Is anyone else having issues with these breakers tripping with vacuums and Frigidare appliances? Or could it be because the electrician didn’t pigtail the outlets. Or perhaps poor electrical work?

What would pigtailing, or not pigtailing, have to do with the breakers tripping?

 

[garbo]

Do this circuit breaker have a means of displaying cause of it tripping? ( arc fault, ground fault, overload ). Did you attempt to switch it out with another dual function breaker. Maybe 15 years ago I used to sit with a very knowledgeable Square D engineer at IAEI meetings. He was one of the guinea pigs to test AFCI single pole breakers in his home. His vacuum cleaner tripped every AFCI breaker that he plugged vacuum cleaner in so he purchased a new vacuum cleaner and that tripped the same breakers. He removed them and Square D tweaked them so vacuum cleaners did not trip them. Vacuum cleaners that I worked on all used universal motors that can run up to 10,000 RPM and the arcing at brushes might play hell with some AFCI'S. If the breaker does not have cause of trip display ( could be flashing LED ) you might want to run it on a GFCI breaker for a few days to see if it trips.

 

[Fred B]

Had a Siemens dual that was tripping. After talking to the Siemens rep was able trace the issue not to the running equipment but noise from a cheap electronic device (no UL) someone in the house was using that put a noise signature back into the system. And when the load would come on, the other circuit saw the noise as an arcing fault.
The siemens rep said that the AFCI trip require a certain level of draw before it really begins to register the arc and trip.

 

[Jraef]

Siemens is in a class action lawsuit for this very issue. It absolutely was an issue for them (and others) to where they had to revise their algorithm to make it less sensitive. That was some years ago, but then what happened during the supply chain crisis is that a lot of the older generation stuff that was pulled from the market, made its way back in through the grey market when people were desperate. So even if this is a relatively new install, if it was done in 2021 or 2022, it’s possible that someone used “New Old Stock” that they were able to find to get the project done.

 

[ramsy]

What would pigtailing, or not pigtailing, have to do with the breakers tripping?

Larry can fix it, he‘s close enough to OP location.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry can fix it, he‘s close enough to OP location.

If nine hours of driving is close enough.

 

[farmantenna]

this is all a mess. Electricians have to look around a house for noisy equipment> F that. A electrician friend spent hours troubleshooting this exact issue in a house he wired 1.5 years ago and only now random tripping started.

 

[ramsy]

If nine hours of driving is close enough.

They should buy plane tickets & lodging, since you are the only person East of the Rockies that cares, or fixes AFCI’s

 

[LarryFine]

Every time I have had random AFCI tripping complaints, swapping it with another AFCI in the panel fixed it.

 

[LarryFine]

They should buy plane tickets & lodging, since you are the only person East of the Rockies that cares, or fixes AFCI’s

Heck, I'll go anywhere they want to pay me to go, but this problem isn't likely to be worth it.

 

[Fred B]

this is all a mess. Electricians have to look around a house for noisy equipment> F that. A electrician friend spent hours troubleshooting this exact issue in a house he wired 1.5 years ago and only now random tripping started.

In my case it was an unlisted not approved device being plugged in that was the cause of the "noise". When made the statement from the Siemens rep to the HO they acknowledged something they had just got was being plugged in, they discontinued use and no more tripping. Seems to confirm the issue was "noise". Cheap amazon and TEMU products that is not listed for use in the states that HO are buying is the issue. IMO.

Had some local guys bragging about getting some SD AFCI breakers off TEMU for only $25. Can't directly prove anything about the breakers, BUT, I suspect they are not what they appear to be. Heard from a UL rep a couple of years back that they caught several containers coming into a west coast port that had SD breakers that were no more than switches. These are ones they caught, how much other garbage is making its way in without discovery.

 

[LarryFine]

 

[micabay]

Siemens is in a class action lawsuit for this very issue. It absolutely was an issue for them (and others) to where they had to revise their algorithm to make it less sensitive. That was some years ago, but then what happened during the supply chain crisis is that a lot of the older generation stuff that was pulled from the market, made its way back in through the grey market when people were desperate. So even if this is a relatively new install, if it was done in 2021 or 2022, it’s possible that someone used “New Old Stock” that they were able to find to get the project done.

Many many appliance Tech's will die on the hill of "Appliances shouldn't be on AFCI/GFCI" because of these issues.

 

[farmantenna]

In my case it was an unlisted not approved device being plugged in that was the cause of the "noise". When made the statement from the Siemens rep to the HO they acknowledged something they had just got was being plugged in, they discontinued use and no more tripping. Seems to confirm the issue was "noise". Cheap amazon and TEMU products that is not listed for use in the states that HO are buying is the issue. IMO.

Had some local guys bragging about getting some SD AFCI breakers off TEMU for only $25. Can't directly prove anything about the breakers, BUT, I suspect they are not what they appear to be. Heard from a UL rep a couple of years back that they caught several containers coming into a west coast port that had SD breakers that were no more than switches. These are ones they caught, how much other garbage is making its way in without discovery.

So I clearly understand: electronic device on circuit A put noise on panel buss and circuit B would see this noise as arc fault signature when a load was turned on this circuit, causing you to think it was circuit B but was actually noise from faulty Elec device on circuit A? Why us? I usually just tell them I can't guarantee anything will stop the nuisance tripping except a non arc fault CB.

 

[Fred B]

So I clearly understand: electronic device on circuit A put noise on panel buss and circuit B would see this noise as arc fault signature when a load was turned on this circuit, causing you to think it was circuit B but was actually noise from faulty Elec device on circuit A? Why us? I usually just tell them I can't guarantee anything will stop the nuisance tripping except a non arc fault CB.

Or recommend NOT buy cheap imported non listed junk.

 

[farmantenna]

Or recommend NOT buy cheap imported non listed junk.

"But they were only $6 and HD ones were $22!"

 

[readydave8]

"But it's brand new "

 

[Jpflex]

Is anyone else having issues with these breakers tripping with vacuums and Frigidare appliances? Or could it be because the electrician didn’t pigtail the outlets. Or perhaps poor electrical work?

It's usually not the installation but manufactures of appliances not following ruled abd allowing leakage current high enough to trip kitchen gfci circuits