Sign and outline lighting

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electricalist

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dallas tx
600.5 Branch Circuits.
Is this saying the dedicated circuit can be for a sign and/ or outline lighting or that each need to be a dedicated circuit if there were both.


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Each building where the conditions exist must have at least one 20 amp branch circuit installed to serve signs and/or outline lighting. Even if there is no sign or outline lighting there must be a circuit installed to supply such items if they are ever added. Blanked off junction box is still an "outlet".
 
Gotcha. I wasn't sure if that circuit could feed both as long as it's only dedicated to them.

They may have meant that both could be connected but the article says "sign or outline lighting" not "sign and outline lighting". I think a clarification from the code panel is in order. If they meant "or" they should have wrote "either sign or outline lighting, but not both" to be very clear.

When English is used properly, it can be very specific and clear. Unfortunately, lots of people are unable to do that.

(Here's your chance to beat me up over any grammatical errors in the above.) :)
 
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They may have meant that both could be connected but the article says "sign or outline lighting" not "sign and outline lighting". I think a clarification from the code panel is in order. If they meant "or" they should have wrote "either sign or outline lighting, but not both" to be very clear.

When English is used properly, it can be very specific and clear. Unfortunately, lots of people are unable to do that.

(Here's your chance to beat me up over any grammatical errors in the above.) :)

That's what prompted me to ask the question. The grammar states " or"

I have a customer who has exterior lights on a dedicated circuit.
They wanted to up grade to 4 LED exterior lights and 1 new LED sign.

The panel is full and the customer as usual doesn't want us turning anything off or to pay us to find an extra circuit if we could.
They want us to use what's there.


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That's what prompted me to ask the question. The grammar states " or"

I have a customer who has exterior lights on a dedicated circuit.
They wanted to up grade to 4 LED exterior lights and 1 new LED sign.

The panel is full and the customer as usual doesn't want us turning anything off or to pay us to find an extra circuit if we could.
They want us to use what's there.


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It's a language vs. logic conundrum. If it said for sign and outline lighting, you could interpret it as saying the circuit has to be used by both or not at all. IMO, the way it is worded permits one, the other, or both... but to be concise it should use "and/or". :D
 
So if I'm sure what a sign is.
What exactly is outline lighting ?


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"Outline lighting is an arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting or other electrically powered light sources to outline or call attention to certain features, such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window [Art. 100]."

http://m.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting

Kind of sounds like accent lighting to me.

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So in your opinion lighting for example to light up the walkway outside the building and the sign for the business should not be on the same circuit?


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Could have been worded a little simpler in the code book.
For example.
The lights that light the walkway could be said to accent the windows or outline of the building and then they could be on with the sign.



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They may have meant that both could be connected but the article says "sign or outline lighting" not "sign and outline lighting". I think a clarification from the code panel is in order. If they meant "or" they should have wrote "either sign or outline lighting, but not both" to be very clear.

When English is used properly, it can be very specific and clear. Unfortunately, lots of people are unable to do that.

(Here's your chance to beat me up over any grammatical errors in the above.) :)
But before that as I highlighted in my last post it says "at least one" 20 amp branch circuit.... meaning there can be more then one if load dictates, but there must be at least one circuit dedicated to the loads mentioned.

Would wall packs be outline lighting on a building.


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If arranged to accent or highlight building features why not? If arranged only to be general lighting no. I think you can have instances where the lighting covers both purposes and then would be allowed on this required circuit. Again more then one circuit is allowed if load dictates so.

Could have been worded a little simpler in the code book.
For example.
The lights that light the walkway could be said to accent the windows or outline of the building and then they could be on with the sign.



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But before that as I highlighted in my last post it says "at least one" 20 amp branch circuit.... meaning there can be more then one if load dictates, but there must be at least one circuit dedicated to the loads mentioned.

If arranged to accent or highlight building features why not? If arranged only to be general lighting no. I think you can have instances where the lighting covers both purposes and then would be allowed on this required circuit. Again more then one circuit is allowed if load dictates so.

When a customer brings me a scenario. I try to be logical and ethical.
When the AHJ says that instal is a no go. The customer says it EC fault for being wrong. When you try to tell them it may be a no go before hand they say. Don't you think that's up to the inspector to decide.


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When a customer brings me a scenario. I try to be logical and ethical.
When the AHJ says that instal is a no go. The customer says it EC fault for being wrong. When you try to tell them it may be a no go before hand they say. Don't you think that's up to the inspector to decide.


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Yes, but inspectors are human and sometimes wrong also. If you feel their interpretation of something is wrong then discuss it with them, and give some good logic to support what you think is correct and not just "I want to do it this way". Unless they are stubborn and the "top dog" of the AHJ, you can always go over their head with your concerns. Many don't want to battle with an inspector and just do as they ask, and sometimes that is just the easiest way when their rejection of something might be holding up a project, so pick those battles accordingly, or if you still strongly enough they are wrong you may still do what they ask for the current project and still continue with the challenge of setting them straight for the next time a similar circumstance comes up.
 
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