Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

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epd807

Member
Im trying to find the maximum munber of 12AWG THHN conductors allowed in 3/4" EMT when allowing the full ampacity of the conductors. Heres what I have:

3/4" EMT=0.533 sq/in X 40%(for full ampacity) = 0.2132 sq/in.

(1) 12AWG THHN = 0.0133 sq/in

# of conductors = 0.2132/0.0133= 16??

This seems like alot of wires for 3/4 EMT!

What am I missing? Please help! Thank you!
 

electricman2

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Are you confusing ampacity with conduit fill? Ampacity reduction would be required if more than 3 current carrying conductors.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Your answer matches the value shown in Table C1. You are not missing anything. Please note that this calculation (and this Table) have nothing to do with the physical work needed to pull that many conductors through that size of conduit. I?m no electrician, and I?ve never tried it, but I would guess that it would not be easy.

Also please note, as electricman2 has mentioned, that with 16 wires in the conduit, each would be limited to a 15 amp load: 30 amps from Table 310.16, multiplied by the 50% derating factor of Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Im trying to find the maximum munber of 12AWG THHN conductors allowed in 3/4" EMT when allowing the full ampacity of the conductors.

That's easy, answer is 3. :D
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

OK. I missed the obvious. Well done to hbiss. The answer to the question, as asked, is in fact 3. You must derate for 4 or more conductors. Therefore, if you want ?full ampacity,? then you must install no more than 3. The rest of the question is unrelated.

Now I must ask epd807: Was this some kind of a test question? If so, it was a trick question. I award a ?shame on you? to the one who wrote it, and another ?shame on you? to myself, for having fallen into the trap.
 

bill addiss

Senior Member
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Do you mean "full ampacity" at 20 Amps?

If so the answer could be 9

Table 310.16 ampacity of #12 THHN is 30A
Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) says 7-9 current carrying conductors use a multiplier of .70

30 x .70 + 21A

Bill
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Originally posted by bill addiss:
Do you mean "full ampacity" at 20 Amps?

If so the answer could be 9

I would bet that was what epd807 was looking for. :)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

One more thing 16 - 12 AWG THHNs will be code compliant in a 3/4" EMT.

Putting that many in the EMT out in the field is another thing altogether.

I would cut down to 12 to 14 at most.
 
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

I fit 17-12AWG conductors once, they only carry 10 amps at the most, but is that to code? Is that too many? Also, sorry if I sound dumb, but I'm just wondering. Can seperate circuits share the same neutral wire? Once I get a copy of the code i'll be able to realize most of this stuff, but util then!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Jack how are you doing today.

First in regards to 17 - 12 AWGs in 3/4" EMT that is over the 40% fill limit regardless of the amperage.

I have to ask how far you where able to do this.

Certainly not much length or many bends.

The issue of separate circuits on a common neutral, as are most things this is not a straight yes or no answer.

In general yes, on a 3 phase panel you can run a circuit from Phase A, B and C and use one neutral, this is a multi wire branch circuit and is actual considered by the NEC to be one circuit even though it can come from 3 separate breakers.

On single phase you can use 2 hots to one neutral.

Here is the NEC definition of this.

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.
In commercial work multiwire branch circuits are quite common.

Now the other side they can have problems with non-linear loads (computers, amplifiers, some lighting) The neutral can get overloaded.

Also if the neutral breaks or is unspliced live on one of these circuits you could send over voltage to some of the connected loads.

You questions have been good ones and the members here will be glad to help out some one just getting their foot in the door.

Bob
 
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

It was for some lighting battens that I made, there were no bends at all and the entire length was 15'. After the fist 2 or 3 feet, 4 conductors were dropped because thats where the first outlet was. But with those, I could have run two hots and one neutral to each two pole outlet? With that would it be best to use like a 10 AWG wire for the neutral? Also, even though USITT requires outlets for dimming application in theatres to be stage pin, I just used commercial grade 2-pole outlets. One because I wasn't sure if the situation would be considered a theatre at all, two the cost and ease to obtain said outlets, and then three, the dimmers are all edison anyway. hehe. I don't think that is a big rule outside of major theatres. I'm not sure sure though.
 
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Also, with those battens, they don't have to be done by a licensed electrician do they? They are not hardwired or anything like that, they're pretty much attractive looking extension cords. Basically, I kinda want to know what I can do. I mean can non-licensed people work within residential areas that they live in? Can I simply take a 12/3 100' extension cord and make 4 25' cords? I just want to know what my limits are. I have gotten in trouble before with things like that cuz i don't know what my legal limits are, nothing too big, just a slap on the hand. But still, I'd rather not deal with a big fine or law suit on my hands. Thank you.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Jack I can not really help you with what the requirements are in your area, here where I live you would need to have a Journeyman's license or work under the supervision of a licensed worker.

About 600 hrs school and 8000 hours under a licensed worker, after this, if you pass a test you can work on your own.

You may be allowed to make extension cords, but it sounds like you are doing much more than that.

Worse in my mind you are doing this work in a place of assembly, in the NEC the requirements are more stringent for this type of occupancy

Being able to make the lights light up has nothing to do with your knowledge of safe wiring practices.

You may be putting many people at risk.

Bob
 

epd807

Member
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Thank you for all of your replies!! Thanks for not reaming me a new one! No, this was not a trick question...it was a dumb question from a person who doesnt know much about the NEC. I really appreciate all the knowledge you guys are willing to share. Yes, I did mean 20amp as "full ampacity"...I wont make that mistake again. So...if you did put 16 12AWG conductors in a 3/4" EMT they would have to be derated by 50%...is that correct? So the ampacity would be 15amp...right? Thanks again!
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Simple EMT fill calculation..HELP!

Originally posted by epd807:So...if you did put 16 12AWG conductors in a 3/4" EMT they would have to be derated by 50%...is that correct? So the ampacity would be 15amp...right? Thanks again!
Right. See my first post for the code citations.
 
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