Single family home, 240 volts one one wire.

Status
Not open for further replies.

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
She had a few outlets in her front room not working, I open those up first. Tick tracer said there was V. Wiggy said nothing. Ran a extension cord from a known proper working outlet. Found in one of them to have 240V. on one wire. No neutral in any of them.

Checked the rest of the house with a plug tester, found in the dining room two outlets with reverse polarity. House also has aluminum wiring. And a couple of breakers that look melted somewhat.

I was just trying to help a sweet old lady for free, but this place is a nightmare!:slaphead: Thank you for your help.

P.S. I remember seeing on this site, a picture of how when you lose a neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit, it sends 240V. through each wire. Is this why I'm seeing 240V. to ground on one wire?
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
She had a few outlets in her front room not working, I open those up first. Tick tracer said there was V. Wiggy said nothing. Ran a extension cord from a known proper working outlet. Found in one of them to have 240V. on one wire. No neutral in any of them.

Checked the rest of the house with a plug tester, found in the dining room two outlets with reverse polarity. House also has aluminum wiring. And a couple of breakers that look melted somewhat.

I was just trying to help a sweet old lady for free, but this place is a nightmare!:slaphead: Thank you for your help.

P.S. I remember seeing on this site, a picture of how when you lose a neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit, it sends 240V. through each wire. Is this why I'm seeing 240V. to ground on one wire?

If you're seeing 240 to GROUND you have more problems that an open neutral. You have to have a phase to ground short and her ground is really not a ground. It is most likely 120 volts away from ground. I'll bet somewhere the EGC is non-existent/open, or the N_G bond is not correct at the panel.

You might want to drive a rod out in her yard and measure from there to every metal enclosure. It sounds like this place is dangerously unsafe. I wouldn't want to sleep there.
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Oh, and "drive a ground rod", can mean a long screwdriver pushed into the dirt.

And your first tests should probably be with a wiggy and a test light. DMMs can pick up some funny stuff when doing these kinds of tests
 
Last edited:

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Although you can pick up 240 volts from one receptacle to another if they are on separate hots.


But picking up 240 volts to ground is really scary. Every switch, outlet, and appliance could be hot to touch
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
20513.jpg

Refer to the picture above. First, I apologize before hand if you understand this, but form the OP I suspect you may struggle with the theory. The exact nature of your problem requires more information, so I will try to help you to help yourself. I have always had success with simplicity. So, please don't read this if you remember all that theory stuff, or if you do, realize I am not trying to truly explain the intricacy of electricity, merely providing a tool to make day to day troubleshooting quicker.

Pretend you are one single electron and the diagram is a maze or game board. Your object is to get from L1 back to L, or form L2 back to L2. Regretfully the diagram does not show the transformer coils, so you must imagine that you connect from either N, or L2 back to L1, but the easiest path (path of least resistance) is through N.

So, if you have a circuit going out that contains L1, L2 and a shared N, the electron will travel from L1 through switches, loads and back along the shared N to L1. Same for the electron along L2. If the circuit feeds only receptacles and nothing is pluged in, the electron only goes to the hot side of the recep and waits for something to be plugged in.

Now break the neutral beyond all receptacles. If you plug something in to one recept or more on circuit L1, but nothing is plugged in to L2, pretend you are an electron. You run along L1 wire to the recep. you run through the cord to the load (lets say light), then back along the cord neutral, through the recep and along the neutral wire to the break and you stop. You can't go anywhere so the light does not light. You wait and wait. Along comes a person who plugs another light in, but this time to a recep on Circuit L2. Your electron runs back along the neutral to the new L2 receptacle, backwards through the light, along L2 and great, now both lights are lit. The thing is you are now going from L1 to L2, not to neutral so you are pushing 240 volts across both lights.

A couple of things to observe. This will only occur on the lights that are past the broken neutral. All loads before the neutral, your electron still gets to use the neutral highway and they will be fine. If you have a light in L2 receptacle, and check power at an L1 receptacle with nothing plugged in you will read 240 volts. If you have a light plugged in to each, but they do not use exactly the same amount of electricity, then you will read different voltages across each, but they will add up to 240 volts.

As silly as "one little electron running along the wire" sounds, I have taught several apprentices this technique with success. The silliness actually helps. I appreciate any constructive criticism.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Oh, and "drive a ground rod", can mean a long screwdriver pushed into the dirt.

And your first tests should probably be with a wiggy and a test light. DMMs can pick up some funny stuff when doing these kinds of tests


Good point, you want something with a good solid load on it.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
Although you can pick up 240 volts from one receptacle to another if they are on separate hots.


But picking up 240 volts to ground is really scary. Every switch, outlet, and appliance could be hot to touch

Thank you for your help. I checked the recepticles in the house with a plug tester. 2 had reversed polarity, Some were fine, and some had a open ground reading. I plugged in my extension cord to a outlet that read fine.
 
Last edited:

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
View attachment 6378

Refer to the picture above. First, I apologize before hand if you understand this, but form the OP I suspect you may struggle with the theory. The exact nature of your problem requires more information, so I will try to help you to help yourself. I have always had success with simplicity. So, please don't read this if you remember all that theory stuff, or if you do, realize I am not trying to truly explain the intricacy of electricity, merely providing a tool to make day to day troubleshooting quicker.

Pretend you are one single electron and the diagram is a maze or game board. Your object is to get from L1 back to L, or form L2 back to L2. Regretfully the diagram does not show the transformer coils, so you must imagine that you connect from either N, or L2 back to L1, but the easiest path (path of least resistance) is through N.

So, if you have a circuit going out that contains L1, L2 and a shared N, the electron will travel from L1 through switches, loads and back along the shared N to L1. Same for the electron along L2. If the circuit feeds only receptacles and nothing is pluged in, the electron only goes to the hot side of the recep and waits for something to be plugged in.

Now break the neutral beyond all receptacles. If you plug something in to one recept or more on circuit L1, but nothing is plugged in to L2, pretend you are an electron. You run along L1 wire to the recep. you run through the cord to the load (lets say light), then back along the cord neutral, through the recep and along the neutral wire to the break and you stop. You can't go anywhere so the light does not light. You wait and wait. Along comes a person who plugs another light in, but this time to a recep on Circuit L2. Your electron runs back along the neutral to the new L2 receptacle, backwards through the light, along L2 and great, now both lights are lit. The thing is you are now going from L1 to L2, not to neutral so you are pushing 240 volts across both lights.

A couple of things to observe. This will only occur on the lights that are past the broken neutral. All loads before the neutral, your electron still gets to use the neutral highway and they will be fine. If you have a light in L2 receptacle, and check power at an L1 receptacle with nothing plugged in you will read 240 volts. If you have a light plugged in to each, but they do not use exactly the same amount of electricity, then you will read different voltages across each, but they will add up to 240 volts.

As silly as "one little electron running along the wire" sounds, I have taught several apprentices this technique with success. The silliness actually helps. I appreciate any constructive criticism.

Thank you for the diagram. There's another Mike Holt picture that shows what happens when you lose the neutral on a MWBC. That one is really good.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Thank you for the diagram. There's another Mike Holt picture that shows what happens when you lose the neutral on a MWBC. That one is really good.

Please link it here. I just did a quick Google search for any diagram. Mainly to explain my "little electron" theory.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You need to verify what your reference is- if you have 240 volts you obviously have L1 and L2 between your meter leads.

If you have neutral problems you could have more than 120 to ground - the likelyhood of near full 240 is not that great but not impossible.


If you have more than 120 to the EGC you have neutral problems on service side of main bonding jumper.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
"I was just trying to help a sweet old lady for free, but this place is a nightmare! Thank you for your help"
God Bless You!

When someone is as sweet as her, you can't help it! I thought I would find a loose connection and fix it real quick. That wasn't the case at all! :roll:
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
If you're seeing 240 to GROUND you have more problems that an open neutral. You have to have a phase to ground short and her ground is really not a ground. It is most likely 120 volts away from ground. I'll bet somewhere the EGC is non-existent/open, or the N_G bond is not correct at the panel.

You might want to drive a rod out in her yard and measure from there to every metal enclosure. It sounds like this place is dangerously unsafe. I wouldn't want to sleep there.

I Plugged in my extension cord, check the cord with my wiggy, hot to neutral 120v., hot to ground 120v. and neutral to ground 0v. Everything read fine. So when I took that extension cord over to the wire in question, that single wire to neutral and/or ground read 240v. I still don't know how you can get 240v. on one wire?:?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I Plugged in my extension cord, check the cord with my wiggy, hot to neutral 120v., hot to ground 120v. and neutral to ground 0v. Everything read fine. So when I took that extension cord over to the wire in question, that single wire to neutral and/or ground read 240v. I still don't know how you can get 240v. on one wire?:?
That is odd. An open neutral on a MWBC would not give you 240V to ground.

Following up with Joe and Kwired- 240V from line to equipment ground would be most unusual and very scary. Throw the bug eye tester away for now. Time to check voltages at the main and make your own plug that you know is good and test again. While your at it check for continuity between neutral and equipment ground.

Spidey sense tells me there is some more reverse polarity problems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top