I have installed a 400 AMP 250 volt three phase service entrance rated panel. It has two 150 amp three pole breakers and 0ne 100\3 breaker and one 100\2 breaker . Non Reversing screws are installed in unused bus space. The local inspector says this panel is not legal. I am sure it is . What do you do as the panel is already installed?
Six disconnect rule
- Thread starter doyle
- Start date
- Status
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Six disconnect rule
What does he say is illegal about it? It sounds to me like you're OK as far as the six-disconnect rule is concerned.
What does he say is illegal about it? It sounds to me like you're OK as far as the six-disconnect rule is concerned.
Re: Six disconnect rule
He basely does not like it. When I showed him 408.B Exception one he said because I didn't have an I-Line panel or something like it the was not a power panel. The service entrance rating is on the panel as well as a forthcoming letter from Sq. D stating the panel is being used for the purpose designed. What do you do when inspectors start rewriteing the code?
He basely does not like it. When I showed him 408.B Exception one he said because I didn't have an I-Line panel or something like it the was not a power panel. The service entrance rating is on the panel as well as a forthcoming letter from Sq. D stating the panel is being used for the purpose designed. What do you do when inspectors start rewriteing the code?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Six disconnect rule
Are you by any chance a non-union guy? In many areas inspectors actively harass non-union contractors.
You learn to live with the petty bureaucrats. They can make your life miserable and you have no real way to return the favor.
Are you by any chance a non-union guy? In many areas inspectors actively harass non-union contractors.
Re: Six disconnect rule
A power panel is defined in 408.14B, and it doesn't have to be a I-line. (An I-line is a Square D brand of floor mounted panel, bigger than a regular panel, but smaller than a switchboard).
It sounds like the inspector is afraid that someone else will come along and install more main breakers in the panel at a later time. I don't see anything in the code that says the service entrance panel has to prevent the installation of more than 6 disconnects.
It sounds like it is legal to me. Perhaps you can appeal his descision. Otherwise, you may have to install a main disconnect ahead of the panel.
STeve
A power panel is defined in 408.14B, and it doesn't have to be a I-line. (An I-line is a Square D brand of floor mounted panel, bigger than a regular panel, but smaller than a switchboard).
It sounds like the inspector is afraid that someone else will come along and install more main breakers in the panel at a later time. I don't see anything in the code that says the service entrance panel has to prevent the installation of more than 6 disconnects.
It sounds like it is legal to me. Perhaps you can appeal his descision. Otherwise, you may have to install a main disconnect ahead of the panel.
STeve
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Six disconnect rule
I agree with Steve. The inspector is probably concerned that someone someday might violate the six-disconnect rule. I like to put mains in subpanels regardless, so this hasn't been an issue for me.
If you still want to challenge this, I would think that recourse would be to talk to the inspector's supervisor. Of course, that means that the inspector in question will probably put you on his fine-tooth-comb list for future inspections, which might make things worse for you overall. There are some practices that are commonly passed but that are technically code violations (e.g., I have yet to find an LB fitting that is 6x as long as the diameter of the opening, as required in 314.28), and the inspector might start getting extremely strict about stuff like that. You might win the battle on the panel but lose the overall war.
[ October 08, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
I agree with Steve. The inspector is probably concerned that someone someday might violate the six-disconnect rule. I like to put mains in subpanels regardless, so this hasn't been an issue for me.
If you still want to challenge this, I would think that recourse would be to talk to the inspector's supervisor. Of course, that means that the inspector in question will probably put you on his fine-tooth-comb list for future inspections, which might make things worse for you overall. There are some practices that are commonly passed but that are technically code violations (e.g., I have yet to find an LB fitting that is 6x as long as the diameter of the opening, as required in 314.28), and the inspector might start getting extremely strict about stuff like that. You might win the battle on the panel but lose the overall war.
[ October 08, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
physis
Senior Member
Re: Six disconnect rule
So let me get this straight. The inspector is going to the Square D catalog for panel definitions? Or is he just siting an example?
I think I feel like you do. I don't see where the problem is. Either way he should indicate the compliance issue on the job card. And if he doesn't use a code reference it should at least be coherent.
Edit: Amen to that Jeff
[ October 08, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
So let me get this straight. The inspector is going to the Square D catalog for panel definitions? Or is he just siting an example?
I think I feel like you do. I don't see where the problem is. Either way he should indicate the compliance issue on the job card. And if he doesn't use a code reference it should at least be coherent.
Edit: Amen to that Jeff
[ October 08, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Re: Six disconnect rule
He may think there is the possibility of someone installing more than 6 movements in the future somehow.Evidently the panelboard has additional circuit space available for this to happen even though it has 1 way screws,I've seen guy's take these screws out with a pair of pliers and install additional breakers.By rights the only way to limit the # of disconnects to 6 or less would be to install a single disconnecting means for this panelboard or install a 6 circuit max. panelboard (7 single pole breakers would be a code violation in this panelboard).I'm not saying I agree with him but I could see his point.There is nothing to back his statement about the I-line,that is a sq.d brand and not used to determine the definition of a power panelboard.
He may think there is the possibility of someone installing more than 6 movements in the future somehow.Evidently the panelboard has additional circuit space available for this to happen even though it has 1 way screws,I've seen guy's take these screws out with a pair of pliers and install additional breakers.By rights the only way to limit the # of disconnects to 6 or less would be to install a single disconnecting means for this panelboard or install a 6 circuit max. panelboard (7 single pole breakers would be a code violation in this panelboard).I'm not saying I agree with him but I could see his point.There is nothing to back his statement about the I-line,that is a sq.d brand and not used to determine the definition of a power panelboard.
Re: Six disconnect rule
Jap,
Doyle, this inspector is out to lunch, and you can tell him I said so, after all, I don't have to put up with him and this will keep him from being mad at you.
Ask him what he would do if you put a 200 amp fused disconnect up for a 125 amp service or feeder, what is keeping someone from installing larger fuses or would he force you to install 200 amp conductors?
If he changes the design of a stamped drawing, it seems as though he is taking on some liability of a designer, and I wouldn't think he would have the credentials to do so.
Roger
Jap,
would these be single, double, or three pole breakers in this six circuit panelboard?
Doyle, this inspector is out to lunch, and you can tell him I said so, after all, I don't have to put up with him and this will keep him from being mad at you.
Ask him what he would do if you put a 200 amp fused disconnect up for a 125 amp service or feeder, what is keeping someone from installing larger fuses or would he force you to install 200 amp conductors?
If he changes the design of a stamped drawing, it seems as though he is taking on some liability of a designer, and I wouldn't think he would have the credentials to do so.
Roger
Re: Six disconnect rule
If its a 6 cir panelboard do the math.
Any panelboard with more than 6 circuits has the possibility of having more than 6 movements in it.
That is why some get turned down when installing a panelboard as a service disconnecting means without a main means of disconnect.
If its a 6 cir panelboard do the math.
Any panelboard with more than 6 circuits has the possibility of having more than 6 movements in it.
That is why some get turned down when installing a panelboard as a service disconnecting means without a main means of disconnect.
Re: Six disconnect rule
Roger
[ October 08, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Huh, if you read my second post closely, I say if you read my second post closely, you will see there would only be 125 amp, I say, I say, 125 amp fuses installed. (read that part with a Foghorn Leghorn style)
Roger
[ October 08, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Re: Six disconnect rule
Ask him what he would do if you put a 200 amp fused disconnect up for a 125 amp service or feeder, what is keeping someone from installing larger fuses or would he force you to install 200 amp conductors?
I say,I say,I say,you said nothing about fuse sizing in your original post,but anyway,an inspector can only inspect what is installed at the time of inspection.
Ask him what he would do if you put a 200 amp fused disconnect up for a 125 amp service or feeder, what is keeping someone from installing larger fuses or would he force you to install 200 amp conductors?
I say,I say,I say,you said nothing about fuse sizing in your original post,but anyway,an inspector can only inspect what is installed at the time of inspection.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Six disconnect rule
A 42 circuit panel with only six breakers installed meets the six disconnect rule even though someone can install more breakers.
Exactly.
A 42 circuit panel with only six breakers installed meets the six disconnect rule even though someone can install more breakers.
- Status