Six throw question

[K8MHZ]

I get a call from a friend of mine. It seems his sister just bought a house and had a 'home inspection' done and as ususal the 'inspector' made an issue of two wires connected to a single breaker.

I told him that some breakers were listed for two wires, others were not and I had to go look at it. When I got there I found an older QO main lug load center with no main, not even a back fed one. All but one of the breakers did not have a two wire terminal and most were doubled up. (Yes, they come both ways with QO's) The only breaker with a two wire terminal had a single wire.

Not only does it take nine throws to shut the building down right now, but I can't see any service rating on the panel. There is a spot for it, but nothing is there. I don't see a panel bond provision, either.

In addition to that, the grounding is insufficient to say the least, but an easy fix. They went from well to city water at some point and never bonded the water pipes.

Sis, I am sure, just figured I could come over and put in enough new breakers for all the wires and life would be good. So now I come along and won't touch the job without a full blown panel upgrade, permits, inspections, etc., and all.

Question: Was there ever a point in time where this type of 'service' was permitted?

'Nuther question: If the panel was legal at installation, what would be the legal aspects of adding breakers to accommodate the wires? (No, I am not going to do it.....)

One option I considered would be to replace the old breakers with new QO's and I would make Sis happy cheap like but still leave her with a nine throw panel.

My 'little voice' tells me there are only 2 options. One, leave it alone. Two, install a new panel and fix the grounding conundrum.

What I would like is for some inspector types to comment so I can print them out and pass them along to Sis and Friend.

Thanks!!

 

[augie47]

I get a call from a friend of mine. It seems his sister just bought a house and had a 'home inspection' done and as ususal the 'inspector' made an issue of two wires connected to a single breaker.

I told him that some breakers were listed for two wires, others were not and I had to go look at it. When I got there I found an older QO main lug load center with no main, not even a back fed one. All but one of the breakers did not have a two wire terminal and most were doubled up. (Yes, they come both ways with QO's) The only breaker with a two wire terminal had a single wire.

Not only does it take nine throws to shut the building down right now, but I can't see any service rating on the panel. There is a spot for it, but nothing is there. I don't see a panel bond provision, either.

In addition to that, the grounding is insufficient to say the least, but an easy fix. They went from well to city water at some point and never bonded the water pipes.

Sis, I am sure, just figured I could come over and put in enough new breakers for all the wires and life would be good. So now I come along and won't touch the job without a full blown panel upgrade, permits, inspections, etc., and all.

Question: Was there ever a point in time where this type of 'service' was permitted?!!

Don't think so. And definitely not since "QO" was available. Any possibility there is an outside disconnect ?

'Nuther question: If the panel was legal at installation, what would be the legal aspects of adding breakers to accommodate the wires? (No, I am not going to do it.....)

mute point :smile: wasn't legal to begin with so any inspection would nail that fact[/quote]

One option I considered would be to replace the old breakers with new QO's and I would make Sis happy cheap like but still leave her with a nine throw panel.

My 'little voice' tells me there are only 2 options. One, leave it alone. Two, install a new panel and fix the grounding conundrum.!!

listen to it:smile:

What I would like is for some inspector types to comment so I can print them out and pass them along to Sis and Friend.

Thanks!!

You want to assure sis' safety so you should do it correctly.
One route might be to add an outside service disconnect and keep the inside panel, refeed with 4 wire and install proper breakers. The grounding would be addressed from the new service disconnect.

 

[480sparky]

I've traced the 6-throw rule back to Rule 405.b.2 of the 1931 NEC.

It's quite possible that the original installation had 6 or less breakers, and others came along a just added more, ignoring the rule.

 

[cadpoint]

What Code are you working under?

I would think that the AHJ might be well interested to see this brought up to active "CODE - standards"

AFCI's, kitchen circuits, smokes, bathroom, GFCI's, I know you didn't state anything about these circuits, but will they be required to be brought up to date, due to the other main application? Can you just swap out, add the panel as earlier described and that's it?

I'd assume that this is a '40- '50 circa home is there a ground in all these circuits?

 

[LarryFine]

If the panel is a split-bus, and you have six (or more) 2-pole breakers (including the lower-section main)(or you add handle ties (remember, they're for manual disconnect)), you can restore the six-handle compliant installation.

You should be able to do a load calc and see if the present service equipment is adequate, and decide if you want to install a main-breaker pannel anyway, or a sub-panel for more spaces.

 

[charlie b]

Sounds like unfortunate timing. As I understand it, sis has completed the purchase process, and now is the owner. What I don't understand is when the home inspection took place. If there were issues, why did sis not get a final resolution, and include the price of any repairs in the negotiations with the prior owners?

Whatever may have been the code in effect when the house was built, and whatever changes (legal or not, documented or not, performed under permits or not) have taken place since, I don't think the so-called "grandfather rule" should apply here. I think there is a safety hazard. This panel is a fire waiting for its opportunity to start, and when it does start the fire department will not be able to safely turn off the power before combating the fire.

 

[augie47]

If the panel is a split-bus, and you have six (or more) 2-pole breakers (including the lower-section main)(or you add handle ties (remember, they're for manual disconnect)), you can restore the six-handle compliant installation.

You should be able to do a load calc and see if the present service equipment is adequate, and decide if you want to install a main-breaker pannel anyway, or a sub-panel for more spaces.

Larry, I couldn't recall ever seeing a QO split-buss panel. Did Squre D manufacturer one ?

 

[hillbilly1]

You could change the single poles, if you have enough of them, to double poles, reducing your amount of throws to six.

 

[hillbilly1]

Larry, I couldn't recall ever seeing a QO split-buss panel. Did Squre D manufacturer one ?

Seems like the first one I ever saw was a Square D QO, The last one I seen was an ITE.

 

[jim dungar]

Larry, I couldn't recall ever seeing a QO split-buss panel. Did Square D manufacturer one ?

They did until NEC changes made them 'obsolete' in the 80's. My first panel change out was from a QO split bus.

I will have to check my files, but I believe that all QO 15-30A breakers have accepted two conductors, since around 1964. I know some of the ones built in the 50's had a single hole barrel type lug rather than the present 'self lifting' pressure plate. I think the change occurred about the same time as Visi-Trip was introduced.

 

[K8MHZ]

Thanks, you guys are great!

I aplogize for not responding to each of you but I am in the process of moving.

I think the two pole breaker approach is the most creative and I will consider it. Thanks Hillbilly!

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Bringing it into code legally is as simple as some handle ties and pig tails to land single wires to breakers . We are taliking less than $50.
Now move onto what it really needs and upgrade panel.
Far too many here think a HI means anything. They usually can't back anything up with code. Most have no idea what they are looking at or what year nec needs apply.
Have sold many homes in my life and simply sell as is. Care less about what some wanta be HI comes up with. Buyer pays agreed price and can fix at there cost what ever they want to. It's time to shut the HI down untill they get educated enough to do the job. Screw up or delay sale and i start lawsuit. Now they are spending more than job paid. They will back off fast.

 

[K8MHZ]

Far too many here think a HI means anything. They usually can't back anything up with code. Most have no idea what they are looking at or what year nec needs apply.

So far that is what I have found.

The HI missed the incandescent lamps in the bedroom closets like the last one did, too. Even though incandescent lamps were legal upon installation our local codes prohibit them. Something about the heating element of an EZ Bake Oven in proximity of a shelf full of combustibles probably was the motivator. I could be wrong.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

So far that is what I have found.

The HI missed the incandescent lamps in the bedroom closets like the last one did, too. Even though incandescent lamps were legal upon installation our local codes prohibit them. Something about the heating element of an EZ Bake Oven in proximity of a shelf full of combustibles probably was the motivator. I could be wrong.

If enough go after them in court even after the sale we will see most shuting down and the few good ones will stay busy. They need know more than any combo inspector that the county hires. Few come even close. They depend on sellers just wanting to close.

 

[K8MHZ]

If enough go after them in court even after the sale we will see most shuting down and the few good ones will stay busy. They need know more than any combo inspector that the county hires. Few come even close. They depend on sellers just wanting to close.

The big problem is that they will only hire people that profess to be skilled in all the trades. They won't hire specialists.

I think the entire HI industry is a ripoff. Why not just hire the AHJ's for a binding inspection?

 

[rt66electric]

how many breakers can you "throw" at once??

how many breakers can you "throw" at once??

I had a argument with a seasoned journeyman, He stated " you can use three fingers to 'throw' three breakers at a time" thus allowing for 18 single-pole breakers. I listened carefully but, had him install a Main breaker.

 

[George Stolz]

I had a argument with a seasoned journeyman, He stated " you can use three fingers to 'throw' three breakers at a time"...

I like the way he thinks.

Using the tip of my pinky to the end of my elbow as a panel squeegee, I can kill 30 poles at once, so I imagine I can really forget the six-handle rule now.